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Dry line vs Wet line.
The other training issue/discussion we have had here at my dept. recently is the advancement of dry line vs wet line into a fire structure. The advantages or each and the disadvantages of each. We recently had a fire in the area in which this was a big issue and resulted in the death of 2 FF's. Our deptment conducted some training evo's and found out some key issues that must be addressed and some things that may be a surprise to some. I think that it was believed that advancing a dry line into the structure and then getting water would be faster than advancing a charged line to the seat of the fire. However we found out that is was most cases at least 30-40 seconds slower and in some cases over a minute. Most of this was communications and water to nozzle time. Communication was one of the biggest issues as it often is. With us we have found out as most others have that 8oomhz digital radios pretty much stink on the fire ground operations. I could go on for awhile on this subject, however I just would like some other opinions from you guys. We concluded that barring some rare circumstances there was just no reason to enter a fire structure without a charged line. Now I am talking about a residensial fire not a warehouse fire where abviously circumstances could be different.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Cafryrmn on
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Ben, If I worked with the Rock, Brian Urlacher, and John Wayne as my skipper, then I would assume that I'm working on my shift, on my truck. I would have my hands full just trying to keep myself and these guys alive. Trying keep these guys from doing something crazy. I'm I would have a lot of fun at work everyday and tons of stories. Thankfully, my crew isn't that crazy.
Good preplanning has a lot value before a fire occurs in a big box store. Hopefully, the big box store sprinkler systems have performed their job and either kept the fire in check or extinguished the fire. I certainley agree with "situational tactics". I always like to work safer, smarter and not harder. If that means extending a 2½" or 3" supply line and then wyeing off with handlines, then I will do that (We also use a 2" attack line). If it means extending the lines dry (given the right conditions), then I will do that. I also agree that having multiple tools in your tool box is what we all should strive for. Being able to adapt to the dynamic conditions on the fireground is vital. Using these tools safely, effectively, and properly is vital. I don't want to drag the ventilation question into this disscussion but that does play an important part as well. Above all, we all have to be safe, watch everyone's back, properly size-up the conditions, and adapt to the ongoing situation so we can go home to our families.
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Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on
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My analagy wasn't about the Rock, Urlacher, and Lt. Wayne being crazy, it was about the physicial capabilities they have in their prime. I know a lot of 3-firefighter engine companies that don't have a single fireifghter with that kind of musclepower, but they still have to get the line stretched to the fire in that big box. If that means stretching dry when the situation calls for it, so be it.
In my district, all of the big box stores are sprinklered, but that is the exception in my state, not the norm. The typical grocery, home improvement, or furniture store in my state isn't sprinklered. I wish they were. Even if sprinklered, the system isn't always operational or tested according to code. Many of these big box stores are covered by volunteer fire departments that are spread thin just covering their calls, let alone trying to maintain fire hydrants, perform inspections and pre-plans, or ensure that the fire code is enforced...including scheduled sprinkler system testing.
My department uses wyed 2.5-inch lines for our high rise/mid rise fires and for long stretches where preconnects are not practical, too. We have the same problem with our marinas and yacht basins - long stretches with limited manpower. However, those stretches get made dry, because we carry the 1.75-inch bundle with a nozzle and a 2.5-inch bundle with the wye...and we carry them dry.
The bottom line is that there are very few ALWAYS or NEVER situations when it comes to stretching wet or dry. I will say that you should NEVER let a door close on a hoseline - wet or dry - because doors make all-too-effective hose clamps, and that you should ALWAYS make sure that everyone goes home.
You obviously understand that there are lots of variables in any firefight, and that unless we define all of the pertinent variables, we need to be careful about establishing absolutist positions on how we stretch a line - or anything else.
And...if I worked with the Rock, Brian Urlacher, and John Wayne, I'd have my hands full, too.
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Some of the guys I know used to call in "scared" instead of calling in sick.
"Lieutenant, I'm afraid I'm not going to be at work today." :-)
My old Rescue Company motto: "Medium Fire equals a can job. Heavy Fire equals a two-can job."
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Permalink Reply by Paul Montpetit on
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I think it is totally irresponsible to even allow a team to advance a line beyond the door without it being charges AND all air cleared from it.....What defense do you have if you don't...?? Lets be realistic here folks...the only thing you have between you and the fire is .....WATER....The "Oh Shit" factor goes right off the scale if you hit the gate on the nozzle and you get nothing....and it has happened before....and yes people can and probably will die because of it......Go back to basics....they may save your life...the instructors didn't beat that into your head just to hear themselves rant you know....Stay safe all....and always keep the faith............Paul
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Permalink Reply by Dave on
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Paul,
I have been to many fires where I was on the fire floor , and above the fire floor with no line on that floor. The small video I have on my page was a fire I did last week. We arrived with the first engine company, they ran a line to protect the exposure and to cut off the fire to the first building. We had 4 floors with fire in them, report of people in the building. My crew split up and 2 went to the first floor and two to the second. Found fire coming out of the rear bedroom, crawled down the hallway beneth the fire and closed the door, Basic fire tactics. Confining the fire to that room. Whe nthe third engine showed up they ran a dry line to the second floor , got into position and knocked the crap out of the fire.
The Engine company was able to travel the spiral stairs with little to no problems, get in place in a short time and kick the crap out of the fire, preventing it from spreading. This was repeated for the third floor and the first floor with other engine companies. Although the third floor had more fire because the fire had spread before we could have gotten an company there to contain it.
Had they had the line charged, they would have been delayed. and wasted more energy getting that line in position.
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Permalink Reply by Alex Griffin on
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It all depends firefighting is not a exact science. If you have flames showing pull that 2 and a thief up to the proper place to enter the structure and charge it, and go. other times you may can bring a dry line up. other times you can just bring a water can or a abc extinguisher. So training and experience are the best teachers and of coarse talking it over like we are now.
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Permalink Reply by KOJOFF on
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Ok, Im afraid I have to crawfish a little bit. I have done a little thinking and studying on this subject. I think we have a little bit of a we said, they said thing going on here.
I can see the benifit of both carrying a charged line in and also taking a dry line in, both have their benifits and negatives. It all depends on your service area. High population, high building density areas with large buildings, it would make more sense to take a dry line to a fire floor in a high rise.
I have to admit, the area I serve, both as a career and my vollie area, do not have very many high rise or large commercial occupancys. (Ive never seen a highrise trailer house ) Ill put it this way, my career gig, we have a75 ft ladder truck that is able to reach the roof of every building in town, the tallest of which is the hospital, thats only 4 storys. I hate to admit it, but, there are some things I learned in the fire academy that because I dont use them every shift, I have kinda filed away for "safe keeping". That is the point of training, and the reason we all should train to cover our response areas.
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Permalink Reply by kimball on
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Well I agree and disagree with the 800 mhz. I agree cause our system does suck ass! but the county next to us that we support alot is awsome! it all depends on if the towers are set up correctly and put in the proper places and if they are they are the best communication I feel but if not it is the worst system but enough of that issue. We look very carefully at this, only our most expirence guys are allowed to even think about taking a dry line in. but if the OIC says no that hose line better be charged before you enter or that will be your last fire for a LOOONG time lol. I do agree taking a dry line in is very dangerous for obvious reasons, but it all depends on the size up of the building outside and having experience and enough knowledge to know where that fire is and approx how big and many rooms are involved, and of course how to find it. but in conclusion if your not experienced or are not comfortable taking a dry line, go in wet.
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Permalink Reply by dmedic on
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800 analog - god I wish I had them back! Wait till you get the digital AWIN type systems :-(
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Permalink Reply by Dwight Goodman on
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Hey gents and ladies,
I would like to say here what we practice in the Country Fire Authority in Australia. We never enter a structure in which we can see smoke and or flames issuing without a charged hose line. One reason being is our members do not have a portable radio each and becuase our initial CABA crew does a primary search and also knocks out the fire if and when they come accross it. It's just not worth getting caught out and not being able to get through to the pump operator or officer when you need to. Out of the average of about 15 - 20 firefighters who atend fire calls in our station have gone home. On average it will take us from pulling the Pumper up to entering the structure about 2 - 3 minutes fully donned in CABA, Turnout gear and a charged line. So we will not gain any more time by using this method of dry line and it will only put an un-nessercary risk on the CABA crew inside.
I would say that from what I have seen in videos from the USA fire can develop quickly and fiercly and if a firefighter is inside at that time and does not have water to calm that fire or protect himself then you will most likely seriously injure or end up with a LODD.
My conclusion, Not a good idea compared to a chared line.
Cheers
DG
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Permalink Reply by Matthew Brough on
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We have the Motorola LTS 2000 800mhz system and it's the same way, they recently rebanded our radioes and we have had more problems in the last year since the reprogram than we have had in the previous ten years we have had them.
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Very well stated. Almost everything you have said applies with our department and I'm sure others would agree. I completely agree with everything you have said.
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