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What is your prefered nozzle--smooth bore or fog
My opinion is that both have their place ,but, i prefer tha smooth bore
I have used them both and it just seems to me that the sb nozzle is easier to manuver in an interior attack because of the slight pressure difference.
Although, on the first in line your adrinline takes care of manuverability for you, but, as the call goes on I tend to tire less while using the sb.
I have used them both and it just seems to me that the sb nozzle is easier to manuver in an interior attack because of the slight pressure difference.
Although, on the first in line your adrinline takes care of manuverability for you, but, as the call goes on I tend to tire less while using the sb.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Chris on
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I have never had that problem in 7yrs (well 3 as an engineer so rarely Firefighting but never saw it happen). You should test the nozzle at the door anyway to make sure its straight streaming. We are a large dept. and to my knowledge it hasn't happened. "attack should be done from outside the room to prevent steam burns" i know that isn't always the case but I think combos are pretty good. Now the water supply problem I have never run into either. But I haven't done much FF in a rural area.
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Permalink Reply by Scott on
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O.K. everyone...let's think for a minute.
What are we hoping to accomplish with our fire stream? Temperature reduction, right? This will put out the fire. The amount of heat we can overcome is directly proportional to the amount of cooling agent we place DIRECTLY ON THE SEAT of the fire, right? Fog nozzle implies and produces what...fog or broken streams...many small droplets of water. Yes, a STRAIGHT STREAM produced by a fog nozzle will handle MOST residential room and contents fires. (By the way, the individual who said that straight and solid streams are the same, please get a copy of IFSTA Fire Streams and read it, quick!) If you want the fog nozzle so you can use a FOG pattern on ANY interior fire you're asking for trouble. Ever wonder why we steam some of our food? It COOKS it, right? Lots of droplets produce steam, steam WILL COOK YOU!
Alright, I apologize, I'm being a smart A$%...
Seriously though, I don't mean to offend anyone, but the reality is that a SOLID tip will put more water directly on the seat of the fire at a lower pressure than a fog nozzle. If you like the best of both worlds, try the combination nozzle. And if you think that you can get the same volume out of a 1 3/4" line as you can with a 2 1/2", PLEASE find a dependable pumper and a Pitot gauge and do some testing. I can get (and so can you) 309 gpm out of my 2 1/2" preconnect with a 1 1/8" tip at 80-90 psi pdp, and 329 gpm with a 1 1/4" tip. "Newagefirefighter", please don't pass out advice about "never use" until you have a little more experience with your subject matter. I say "never use" a fog nozzle on ANY significant commercial fire. Save your fog nozzle for hydraulic ventilation AFTER the fire has been blacked out!!!
I don't sit around making this stuff up gang. I am a student of the business and I listen to the folks who have come before me and learned by doing...and making mistakes. If the people who are teaching you tell you that their way is always best because "that's the way we've always done it", RUN away!!! Read some material from guys like Chief John Norman, Chief David McGrail, Chief Alan Brunacini, or some of the others who've been around the block a time or two in this business. Fog nozzles and small handlines are NOT necessarily better or more maneuverable, or whatever. The key is to study, open your mind to new ideas, but most importantly...TRAIN, TRAIN, TRAIN!!! I promise, if you practice regularly with a 2 1/2" line and a 1 1/8" tip at 80-90 psi pdp, you'll never want to pull anything less on a commercial or large residential fire.
The bottom line is...we want EVERYONE to go home in one piece at the end of the shift, so choose the right weapon and be an expert in it's use!!!
Stay Safe out there!!!
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***My apologies to "Newagefirefighter"...after I posted, I re-read your comments and saw that what I had thought said "never USE" actually said "never USED". I slapped myself for jumping to conclusions. But I still want you to play with the different lines...you may be surprised at what you find.
Again, my bad...don't hate me
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Permalink Reply by WHM61 on
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Smooth bore is great for penetration and reach, but in an emergency you can not vent with it. Now fog nozzles can give the ventilation, give you the fire supression better coverage if needed for fire.
The best option is a combination nozzle, gives you best of both worlds and allows for more coverage.
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Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on
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If you only have a hammer in your toolbox, you'll try to make every problem look like a nail.
Smoothbore advantages - better reach at lower pressures, less chance of upsetting the thermal balance in pre-flashover fire.
Smoothbore disadvantages - no hydraulic ventilation, no fog pattern for exposure protection, no fog pattern for cooling Class B fuel containers.
Fog nozzle advnatages - pretty much the opposites of smoothbores.
Don't forget specialty nozzles like foam nozzles, cellar and distributor nozzles, and piercing nozzles - all of which will do things that smoothbores and fog nozzles can't do.
That said, this discussion is why I spent most of my firefighting career on truck and rescue companies - when you only have a 2.5 gallon water can, you don't waste lots of time discussing what kind of nozzle to use.
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Hydraulic ventilation can be a pretty good option on multi-residential fires when you have a line in an attached exposure but no fire there.
There's nothing wrong with giving a fully involved room a shot with a narrow fog, closing the door, letting the steam do it's thing, either.
Most structural fires are small-to-medium residential fires where 1.5 or 1.75-inch lines with fog tips work just fine. It's more about size-up, nozzle technique, and having smart, experienced nozzlemen that understand that you don't want to cook yourself like a lobster if you're in the same compartment with the fire, versus giving a "born loser" a shot of fog and then closing the door.
If you keep a solid barrier between yourself and the fire, the steam and the thermal balance won't be a problem.
The bottom "line" is that it's the company officer's responsibility to select the line caliber and nozzle, based on the occupancy, size-up, and especially whether the interior is survivable for unprotected occupants or not.
If it's a defensive operation, then smooth bore is definately the way to go, because fog nozzles tend to make firefighters want to get up close and personal with big fires where there's really nothing left to save. Big-caliber smooth bores won't drive the fire down on a smaller-caliber opposing line if someone screws up and sets up a "circular firing squad" operation, either.
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Permalink Reply by FF Nick on
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With a 200' preconnect you have to run 400psi at the pump? Friction loss on a 1 3/4 is about 7psi per 50 ft.
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I think Ben has helped to clarify some of my points, and I generally agree with his comments.
I'm concerned about the idea of hydraulically ventilating an uninvolved, attached exposure. Now, understand that I COMPLETELY agree that water damage is sometimes a necessary evil to accomplish the overall objective, but I try to avoid putting water into ANY uninvolved unit. And I DON'T understand venting with a fog nozzle "in an emergency". I there's "an emergency" and I'm in the building, why would I want to hydraulically ventilate and draw the fire and smoke to me? I want LOTS OF WATER directly on the fire or to simply use the window to GET OUT, not ventilate. If the issue is simply smoke removal, let's put the fire out in the involved units and then ventilate as necessary for smoke removal using fans.
That being said, somebody needs to be looking into adjoining units for extension overhead.
And let me clarify that I'm not saying ALWAYS use a 2 1/2" or ALWAYS use a smooth bore nozzle...each weapon has it's place. Like Ben states, company officers must use their knowledge and experience to make the CORRECT decisions regarding line selection and placement. I reiterate that for MOST residential room and contents fires a 1 3/4" line with a fog or combination nozzle will do the job just fine.
And sure, you can put a narrow-angle fog into a well-involved isolated room and "steam" the fire out (provided you are CERTAIN there are no victims in that room), but why not take the fog tip off of the combination nozzle, or even use a straight stream from a fog nozzle and DIRECTLY attack that same fire?
We need a selection of various types and sizes of nozzles on our rigs, and Ben notes the advantages of the fog nozzle...hydraulic ventilation (for smoke removal), exposure protection, and Class B container cooling...oh yeah, and they're good for ground cover fires. Again, every tool in our arsenal has its place, but we MUST understand when and when NOT to use each of them.
The bottom line is this...our objective SHOULD be to overwhelm the fire...whatever size it may be. If you're taking a 1 3/4" line with a fog nozzle into a well-involved commercial fire, you're inviting trouble. We MUST train with ALL of our weapons.
Take care of yourselves and your people and PLEASE stay safe!!!
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A couple of additional points here...
When discussing hydraulic ventilation possibilities for uninvolved, attached exposures, there will be very little water discharged inside the structure if the fog stream is used correctly. Most of the water will go out the window. There is a chance that you may draw the fire to you, but then you have a line to fight it with, right?
The trick is to vent in short bursts - just enough to clear the smoke and get some visibility and some cooler air for the company on the line.
As for steaming the fire out - if the fire is flashed over, everything in the room is "the seat of the fire", so using a smooth bore to get to one specific spot isn't nearly as important as it is for commercial fires. The key move on a flashed over compartment fire is to exclude combustion first, then cool things off. If you exclude combustion by filling a closed compartment with steam, you suppress the seat of the fire without having to direct a solid or straight stream directly to the seat. Fog streams convert to steam much more efficiently than solid streams. Once again a good size-up and using tactics that fit the incident are the key things, not trying to select a single nozzle that fits all situations. That nozzle doesn't exist, although the newer style break-aparts are getting closer to the ideal.
As for commercial fires, I agree that fog tips are generally a bad idea. I'm a big fan of 1.75-inch lines with combination fog tips or break-aparts for residential fires - preconnects and wyed-down high-rise packs work well for most of these. I'm also a big fan of 1.5-inch lines with playpipes and stacked tips for commercial fires.
2.5-inch lines are pretty cumbersome to move in single-family dwellings, and the extra stream reach isn't pertinent in most house fires. On the other hand, the 1.75-inch lines - especially preconnects - are too small and don't have enough reach in commercial fires, especially Big Box/Wide Rise fires.
The bottom line is - as the Phantom Scotsman states - is to overwhelm the fire. There are at least two ways to do that in contained, flashed over compartment fires. You can overwhelm it with floods of water from a solid stream or you can overwhelm it with steam from a fog pattern. You should have both available. Choosing the correct one should be an informed, game-time decision and not a knee-jerk grab for the preconnect.
Residential fires in single-family dwellings are by far the most common structural fire in most parts of the country. It doesn't make sense to use commercial tactics on a residential fire, just like it doesn't make sense to use residential tactics on a commercial fire.
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Permalink Reply by Rahn Abbott on
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I always get a kick out of these discussions. What do you like better,... this _______ or ________that? (Fill in the blanks with whatever the discussion is about.) I think I will start a thread about whether to use a portable monitor or chimney snuffer. It's really that ridiculous. Anyone reading this thread, and has read all the way through it, has already figured out that the smooth bore nozzle and the combination/fog nozzle are two entirely different tools. The each have a different set of advantages/disadvantages. And as such they can and should be used in different scenarios. And with a little training it should be easy to tell which nozzle would be most effective on that particular call.
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Permalink Reply by Erin T. on
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I like adjustable fog nozzles like the ones I used when I trained up in Idaho. They are a lot easier to use and can do a straight stream, narrow and wide fog. all in one.
Erin
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Permalink Reply by Jeff Parrish on
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we use the same hose and nozzles on 200ft crosslays, with pump pressure at 147, we are flowing 150gpm. The low pressure nozzle and 1 3/4 line will flow up to 200gpm and not work you as hard as the 2 1/5. Uses a diffrent formula to figure your loss and pressure.
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