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RIT/RIC and hoselines
So RIT?RIC and HOSE LINES
SITREP
Recent reported structure fire in my first due, occupants report smoke and flames showing from hot water heater/ furnace, reports all occupants out of residence. Ariving engine reports nothing showing from exterior smell of smoke comming from open front door upon 360. has 2 ff pull 1 3/4 lead to front door. Second due engine to water supply and two ff to RIT.
Now every class I have gone thru tells me RIT/RIC in it self does not have a hose line. Thats what back up crews are for right?
Needless to say fire was out upon investigation from attack team with damage only to the furnace and duct work.
What are your thoughts on RIT/RIC and hose lines? What are your SOP/SOG in this reguard?
Sorry for crappy sentance structure and choppy paragraphs trying to do this from my phone.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by John Crabbe on
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Doubtful that there is any more recent RIT event than what has occurred in the past 24 + hours. So when it comes to a hoseline and RIT, perhaps let the words from one of those doing the job of RIT resonate.
“We were the RIT, the rapid intervention team. Our job is to get firefighters who are trapped out,’’ Mullane said. “That’s why they send an extra ladder truck"...........................
“We grabbed a hose line, we charged it [and] we made a push as hard we could to get to that stairwell and get down those stairs,’’ Mullane said.
http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2014/03/27/rescue-team-member-reca...
Having a handline is another tool in the RIT cache. While the RIT team itself may not choose to go in with it, the reality is the worst case scenario just happened, don't limit options based upon some internet forum, some class, some opinions and so forth.
Arguing about RIT using or not using a line and so forth is only theory and conjecture, yet when the real thing happens, you need to be ready. As a RIT member you are going to be no good to a downed FF if you can't get to them, if getting to them means you have a line, then take a damn line with you. Yeah you may tire, yeah you may make some headway before others have to take over RIT efforts, but the reality is you still have the fire and you have the rescue of a downed FF(s), you may not have other people readily available to take a line in for you.
Train, practice, study, and train some more, but never limit your options. You don't know what the conditions will be when the need for a RIT activation occurs, you won't know all the other factors that will be presented. Have a line with your cache and as a RIT team, be ready to deploy with it if you must, the worst case scenario just happened, be ready.
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Permalink Reply by Don Catenacci on
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I am not going to discuss the Boston fire and the 2 fatalities because I was not there and I will not judge their actions. My bet is they did what they believed they needed to in the best efforts to rescue their Brothers.
My career FD initially deployed the RIT team with its equipment to include a hoseline. After months of drills using our 4 man team we found that the hoseline compromised the speed and endurance of the actual RIT crew. It was decided that under most conditions an additional crew would be assigned to the RIT if a hoseline was needed. That was OUR plan, would I even suggest that the RIT would NEVER take a hoseline on its own? Nope, because in those chaotic moments where speed is everything, taking a hoseline might be the best and only choice.
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Part of my whole point here Don. There are just going to be way too many unknowns at any scene, let alone as to why a MAYDAY is called and RIT needed, be ready. Going to the OP's post he states "Now every class I have gone thru tells me RIT/RIC in it self does not have a hose line. Thats what back up crews are for right?".....then we see such comments made against RIT using a line etc here.
Point being is we have a fresh example of a RIT team utilizing a line, I did not provide the link nor quote to discuss their actions, but to show that a RIT team may utilize the option of taking a line with them. There are just too many damn unknowns and the best option for RIT, after their brain and their training, is to be as prepared as possible, the worst case scenario just happened, don't limit your options.
Besides there are RIT uses for a line that can be utilized aside from firefighting. A line can be used to slide down to access a FF, it can be used as a means of egress for a FF, etc. IMO, the line is another tool, it is another option, and frankly for me, anyone who says a RIT team should not have a handline is doing their brother/sisters a disservice. I'm not saying the RIT necessarily has to deploy with a line, but there should be a line available and ready and the RIT may find deploying with it is their best option to mitigate a rescue.
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Permalink Reply by captnjak on
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I'm on board with you on the flexibility and being prepared part of this. I would not use "never" or "always" in the discussion. I think it is generally unrealistic to think a RIT team can stretch and operate a line AND perform extrication, rescue or removal. But I won't suggest that it's never the way to go. Just as I think we don't always need a seperate water source and handline for RIT.
We all know how availability/lack of resources will dictate some of this.
I heard a Boston fire officer state in an interview that they assign two full companies (2 officers and 8 firefighters) to RIT. I would guess it's a truck and an engine so all bases are covered. Not many departments can equal those kind of resources in a timely manner.
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Permalink Reply by capcityff on
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We operate similar to Boston in this regard. We have very good staffing and provide both an engine and truck company. The 5th due engine on the box and 1st due truck on the working fire assignment(3rd due overall) provide RIT. The engine takes it's own hydrant and stretches a line. The truck grabs all of their RIT equipment as well. Both companies stage together.
I like this idea a lot because you have all aspects covered. It also provides extra eyes and ears to catch things. For example this morning Rescue 3 was yelling for a ladder to be thrown to a specific window after finding a victim in a room. It's nine more guys to catch little things like that.
Of course this isn't realistic for many departments with poor staffing.
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Permalink Reply by AJ Zuccarelli on
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Why are you establishing RIT before you have an IDLH?
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Are you familiar with OSHA 29 CFR 1910 et al? NFPA 1500?
From your own posts, "Ariving engine reports nothing showing from exterior smell of smoke comming from open front door upon 360."
The smell of smoke alone, is NOT an IDLH. Per OSHA 20 CFR 1910, (you can search through the paragraphs and subsections to find the exact numerations, I refuse to do all your work for you), (and I paraphrase) any entry to a structure beyond the incipient phase of a fire requires the establishment of 2 in/2 out. The mere smell of smoke does not set the establishment for either 2 in/2 out, OR RIT, as per NFPA 1500.
RIT, as per NFPA 1500 does NOT be to be established so early in the incident. Why? To quote Andy Fredericks, "If you put the fire out, you don't have to jump out the window".
Meaning? Don't set up everything outside, then go in, when you are leaving the fire to grow.
Who is doing primary searches on the fire? Do you KNOW what the difference between 2 in/2 out, and RIT?
My answer to your question, yes, hoselines should be a tool available for RIT/FAST, but situational dependent. And FAST should be doing a helluva lot more then sitting on their asses next to a line in the front yard.
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My apologies, I merely glanced at the lack of sentence structure and spelling and assumed you were the original poster, my apologies for assuming.
Once again, I ask, who is performing the primary search? Do you establish RIt/FAST before you start primary searches? Who is more important, us or the citizens we swore to protect?
There is a time and place for going balls to the wall, slowing things down, and doing nothing. I asked why there is RIT being established when there is NO IDLH. Do you establish RIT with all alarm calls?
RIT 2 in/2 out are not only DIFFERENT, but they are not needed until there is an IDLH. I really can't put it any more simple then that.
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AJ,
Are you really this ignorant or just belligerent? RIT in a majority of cases may not be set up before initial entry is made. It may be a later arriving company estblishing RIT. I don't believe anyone here in any post has said stand around outside while we wait for RIT to be established. Frankly, it seems YOU lack understanding of how RIT is established and is supposed to operate.
I don't believe anyone said RIT should be sitting on their asses on the front lawn either. We got our equipment together and pre-positioned. My career FD pre-positioned a RIT air pack on at least the AD and BC corners of houses we were at. We pre-laddered upper floors. We did our own size-up and pre-emptively forced doors that we may need to enter to effect rescue.
The problem with your cutesy little scenario of the smell of smoke from outside the structure not meeting the standards of an IDLH environment is you can't see, or know exactly, what is going on until you get in there. Are you suggesting that there is no need for SCBA for a smell of smoke call? Because certainly you better have it on your back on both of the FDs I am currently on, as well as my former career FD. The fact is your innocent little smell of smoke call can and has on many occasions gone cow shit very quickly. If we were investigating a simple smell of smoke call we were completely bunkered, wearing SCBA, mask in the ready position, carrying tools and a 2 1/2 gallon PW. We were prepared to find fire and that was how we operated until we found otherwise.
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Don, I'm pretty sure I do. We operate to the letter of the law with 2 in/2 out at work, with 3rd due Engine establishing RIT. If there is any chance of entrapment, no one stands outside, unless they're IC, VESing, or pumping. I can go through our SOPs front and back not because I am a by the book fireman, but because it is what we are expected to do and perform on the fireground.
A smell of smoke, while not an IDLH doesn't mean that I drop my mask at the door, open up my jacket, and stroll on in. There is a difference between staying aware, and establishing a 2 out.
You and I have gone round and round, mostly while misunderstanding each other, on a more.....Crusty site.
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Before I say anything, are we talking, "the person that lives there is in there, he needs help!", with smoke, not much fire showing, and bedroom areas light to moderate smoke, or a fully involved dwelling, with flame from every oriface? We may actually agree, and are missing each other over the internet. I just want to be clear, does anyone wait outside, if you pull up, smoke showing, moderate smoke, some fire. People are screaming that the occupant is in there.
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There is a reason why I asked.
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