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Tanker/Tenders - Should they have Lights and sirens?
Oh boy. I was at the firehouse with some of the other guys today and we were discussing our tanker and the use of red lights and sirens when responding to the scene. Some of us think its okay, some just say no. I'm not sure which states, but some states have it that any new tanker built cannot have red lights or sirens.
What's your opinion on this?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Karl Klotz on
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I think this horse is dead. Let's stop beating it anymore! To each their own when it comes to how you respond with your water hauler. Just a thought!
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Permalink Reply by Don Catenacci on
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Okay Bill,
I went back and read it. I am 100% right in that when you are moving if you want to operate the red lights you must have the siren operating too.
Even with red lights and sirens you still have to operate with due regard and if you run a red light and crush the mini-van and kill Mom, Dad, and the 2 babies your ass will fry.
In the specific chapter you listed there is NO requirement to ever operate red lights and siren.
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Permalink Reply by Derek J Sinesi on
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Karl, I think that is a piss poor attitude. I would have to believe in most states the laws would read if you are running lights you must run the siren to. To be killing of people just because we have always done it this way or i just can't see the big picture is stupid.
Heck we might as well not wear SCBA and go back to just wearing rubber coats. Just run booster lines and vent roofs that already have flames shooting out of them. It is this narrow minded thinking that gets us in trouble.
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Derek,
What were you thinking with this last post? Expecting people to use critical thinking skills and realize that the fire service can no longer justify unsafe acts by saying we have always done it that way!
MY GOD MAN! Are you some kind of radical anarachist or something!! LOL
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Karl,
I agree with Derek, we can't have a fire service run on to each their own.
To each their own when it comes to command, oh wait that doesn't line up with anybody else so when you need help it is a cluster.
To each their own on firefighter qualifications and certifications. Oh wait you called for more manpower to fight a stubborn interior fire and your FD sends 6 guys with beards that can't go interior. Thanks for nothing.
To each their own is a backwards way of thinking and it is an excuse for refusing to keep up with what is going on in the fire service.
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Permalink Reply by Matt Lacey on
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I generally agree with you Don ,but I do have a couple questions.
1. With your plan how easy is it to change back to emergency operations if something catastrophic were to happen and water supply once again becomes an issue?
2. How hard is it to get mutual aide companies to follow your protocol especially on a larger incident where you have dept's that don't normally work with you?
3. Does command inform the water officer that the fire is under control or is it a call the water officer makes when the rigs start piling up?
After paying attention at our calls I have noticed that the water shuttle generally goes quiet on its own with a few exceptions from some mutual aid companies that run less than fifty or so calls a year. As well as the ones that have a hard time following other dept's protocol. Or some of the younger/newer guys. Also I'm in central Illinois and with the weather related water supply issues we have had I do not envy you at all sir.
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Matt,My answers are below in bold type.I generally agree with you Don ,but I do have a couple questions.
1. With your plan how easy is it to change back to emergency operations if something catastrophic were to happen and water supply once again becomes an issue?As easy as the water supply officer noting that water is being used heavily again, there may be only one or 2 tenders waiting to dump and he calls and says run emergent again. For the driver, check traffic conditions because it may not be advantageous to immediately turn on the reds and siren due to traffic, or road conditions. As soon as safely possible return to running emergent.
Compare it to some cities that only run the closest rig or 2 to an automatic fire alarm emergent and the rest run cold until it is reported that it is an actual fire
2. How hard is it to get mutual aide companies to follow your protocol especially on a larger incident where you have dept's that don't normally work with you?Easy with some, harder with others. Just like with everything else when you work with mutual aid.
3. Does command inform the water officer that the fire is under control or is it a call the water officer makes when the rigs start piling up?In my mind the water supply officer should be in direct contact with either operations or the incident commander. The ultimate decision should be made by either the operations officer or the incident commander. Generally, the situation I am talking about is when the fire is mostly knocked down and now we have multiple tenders waiting inline and fold-a-tanks on the ground filled and very little water flowing. There is no need to run emergent in that situation and in fact in my mind there is no need to keep more than a couple tenders even on scene at that point.
After paying attention at our calls I have noticed that the water shuttle generally goes quiet on its own with a few exceptions from some mutual aid companies that run less than fifty or so calls a year. As well as the ones that have a hard time following other dept's protocol. Or some of the younger/newer guys. Also I'm in central Illinois and with the weather related water supply issues we have had I do not envy you at all sir.We have been fortunate that in this winter we have not had a strutctue fire on either of my departments during the ultra-cold weather this winter. As well as I have been laid up to to knee surgery during that period.We did do a training burn back in the beginning of December when we had some sub-zero weather. Our engine/tender and the tech college's engine both froze up and that was a mess. Winter here can be a nightmare with sub-zero temps, wind chills, snow, and blowing snow. Most often it is harder on equipment than people as funny as that sounds. Summer can be just as bad with high temps and hig humidity and those pesky mosquitos.
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I must be. I might of hit my head doing bail-out training or something. LOL
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Derek,
OK, you took this a bit too far with my comment. My point being, there are plenty of opinions on everything in this world. How one does things in Wisconsin, Florida or Nevada, may differ my other places. I never said anything about not running with sirens on if your lights are on. My point here is there is a time and need for everything. This entire topic had gotten very heated with many opinions for no reason other then difference of opinions. TRAINING is key in ALL fire department operations. Your comment "Heck we might as well not wear SCBA and go back to just wearing rubber coats. Just run booster lines and vent roofs that already have flames shooting out of them. It is this narrow minded thinking that gets us in trouble". WTF? Where did that come from??? Go back and read this thread from the first posting. It's gotten way off topic! That's why I said stop beating this horse.
The original topic was "SHOULD TANKERS/TENDER RUN WITH LIGHTS AND SIRENS TO THE SCENE OF A FIRE" Not during a water shuttle after a water source has been established.
By the way, what do you call your water haulers in your area? Tankers or Tenders? It would be nice if ALL the county followed the NIMS format to keep a standard way of operating and language/terms.
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Karl,
The original topic was "SHOULD TANKERS/TENDER RUN WITH LIGHTS AND SIRENS TO THE SCENE OF A FIRE" Not during a water shuttle after a water source has been established.
Um, where are the TENDERS responding to after they go to the established water source? Back to the scene if the fire right? Even after the shuttle is operational the tenders respond to the source and then back to the fire scene. Well, at least they do here in Wisconsin, perhaps with your to each his own your tenders go somewhere else. :)
By the way, what do you call your water haulers in your area? Tankers or Tenders? It would be nice if ALL the county followed the NIMS format to keep a standard way of operating and language/terms.
You call them water haulers and then more or less chastise people for not following NIMS and caller them tenders. I found that kind of ironic actually.
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Karl, I might of went off here,but to state to each there own is not the way to look at it. I have read this tread from the beginning. I have even commented in the beginning. This is not a matter of opinion. This is a matter of concern and safety. We kill off and injure way to many people to just let it go when it comes to tanker/tender incidents.
In my little part of the world with the mere 27 departments in our county we call them tankers. I don't care if they are called tenders or tankers. I would agree that there should be national standards in all areas in the fire service. That is a whole different debate.
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Derek,
No offense taken here. And I understand everyone has a way of doing things. One of my first comments was alot of it comes down to training and safety. No different then driving an engine or truck to a fire alarm or reported fire. There's departments near me that don't even run lights and sirens to outside fires (rubbish, brush etc) but that's up to their policy. I wasn't trying to start a war of words here (although it did). And each area (state/county/city) may have their own laws that have to be followed. I get that. My comment "to each their own" was meant at policy. Every department has reason to do what they do. I don't write policy in my department, but I have to follow it and I do. In addition, I don't care what these rigs are called. I mentioned NIMS as an example to standardization.
I'm done with this topic after this. I've been in this business long enough to know when to stop!
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