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Nozzles
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Mario Campos on
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I have used all types of diffrent nozzles,POK, Elkhart, Akron, TFT. TFT is by far the best nozzle. However when it comes to fighting fire any nozzle manufuacture will tell you combination nozzle is the way to go. Most people say smoothbore for reach and penetration. A combination nozzle will out reach a smoothbore by just increasing the pressure. I have used smoothbore during defensive operations, if the structures components have burned down it is difficult to extenguish fire because you can not bounce the stream off any walls or studs. The stream is just hitting the other side of the structure or going out the other side. Also, the smoothbore hits with a tremendous amount of force and some time this can loosen weak structural components and cause them to collapse.
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Permalink Reply by Tony Erickson on
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Never tried venting a room with a smooth bore.......Never tried putting a propane tank fire with a smooth bore eather.....I'll stick to my combo nozzles but i guess thats my choice...if i need to go threw plaster and lath then theres always irons...
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I realize the diffrence between defensive and offensive. You can also call it outside - inside
When a structure has been pretty much destroyed, no roof and mostly intereior walls, the stream from a smoothbore requires obsticels to break up the stream into small water pattern. Sometimes the remaining configuration of the structure makes it difficuilt for the appropriate amount of water to get to the hote spot. No argument here I tottaly agree with your point. I am also aware that a comination nozzle will requier a higher pressure and more personnel so this may not be an option for some organizations. I have used both smoothbores and comination nozzles and both have pro and cons.
Stay Low Bro..
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Permalink Reply by Paul Montpetit on
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and also the increase in steam.....hmmm isn't it the steam that burns firefighters even through the turn-out gear...? And how many people have spent more than a few minutes on the line, it makes a difference....
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Really...? You figured this out all by yourself...? Cool...and how do you deal with the steam factor...? and what about beating the heck out of your people..?
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Permalink Reply by Vic Silverfish on
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I've used both, but will admit I usually ran bar, not nozzle. The smooth bore is a good 'un, especially for larger lines where the lower pressure makes it easier to manoeuvre. That said, for almost any interior attack, a combo is far superior in almost every way. If the fire hasn't vented, you can use it to cool the layer with a lot less water than pencilling a smooth bore, you can still get good penetration when you bring the pattern in, and it does vent a lot better than a smooth bore. Using a good combination attack (cooling the layer, hitting the seat) is a good way to put out a lot of fire with just a little water, and you can't do that as well with a smooth bore.
Smooth is better for defensive fire-fighting, or for strange circumstances where you need a lot of distance or penetration. The combi-tip does all of these things well enough inside most structures, and give you options that you don't really have with a smooth. It does require a bit more training, but that's why we train.
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Permalink Reply by 55 TRUCK on
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We have two shoulder carrys on the back of our engines 1 side has a smooth bore the other a fog. I say use what you feel comfortable with. Me I like smooth for structures and fog for vehicles.
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Permalink Reply by Asst Chief Tim Cook on
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I run with two depts. A simple solution we use is run 1&1 on the crosslays. Pick the one best suited to the job. I'd also agree with the poster that said either can be effective in TRAINED hands. Know what you have and how to use it to it's maximum potential.We run a mix of a lot of nozzles over the years. Haven't found the PERFECT one yet. T.C.
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Permalink Reply by Matt Montgomery on
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we have a few smooth bore nozzles on our deptarment but all of our attack lines are fog/combo nozzles, you can do more with them, more choices to work with. i am a fog/combo nozzle kind of guy.
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Permalink Reply by Don Catenacci on
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Kyle,
After 37 years in the fire service I couldn't possibly disagree with you more in both your choice of nozzle and your tactics.
One of the FDs I am a member of uses 2 inch hose also, but we put a 200 gpm at 75 psi low pressure combination nozzle on it. We under pump it to 55 psi at the nozzle to get 160 gpm to start,
or we go to 75 psi at the nozzle to get 200 gpm. If that isn't enough we can dump the combo tip and go to a 1 1/4 inch smoothbore and flow 300 gpm at 42 psi at the tip. Do you use you set-up on standpipes? If so why? Standpipes are not designed in most cases for 100 psi nozzles and the use of 100 psi nozzles, especially automatics, has a history of causing problems, from inadequate pressures leading to inadequate flows.
STEAM? Are you kidding me? What about victims in the fire area or in adjacent rooms? You will burn them, and possibly kill them with the steam moving under pressure into other areas as it expands. The only time the use of steam conversion on the scale you are talking about is appropriate is when you can control the doors of an area to keep the steam in until venting is done, or you can confirm 100% that there are no possible survivable victims in the area. Water damage is not the result of any nozzle type, it is the result of improperly trained, and poorly skilled, nozzle operators not turning the nozle off when the fire darkens down. Believe me your TFT can do just as much water damage as any smoothbore with a poorly trained nozzle person.
If the TFT's and steam conversion firefighting works for your FD more power to you. We use, whenever possible, either a straight stream or a smooth bore for interior firefighting to keep the amount of steam production down, which has a secondary effect of keeping visibility better by not forcing smoke and heated gases down on the attack crew.
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Kyle,
Thanks for clarifying your points.
I have used automatic nozzles for many years, in fact one of the POC FDs I am on now uses TFT's. I just don't see the value in the wide flow range capability when most FDs don't ever take advantage of it.
Thanks for the kind words. I will help when I can.
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Permalink Reply by captnjak on
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I just went through this whole thread as I don't believe I've seen it before the most recent activity. It doesn't much matter to me what nozzles are used by other departments. I'm FDNY and we've used smoothbore exclusively for interior structural firefighting for a long time. I know a couple of engine companies here and there have experimented over the years with fog nozzles. Maybe some still do. It seems to always come back to smoothbore. Some will say, "you have your preference and we have ours". That's fine. But what is your preference based on? I know that our preference is based on thousands of structural fires over many years. Are some of you using your fog nozzles because that's what is there? And always was? Do you like using them because you have them or do you have them because you like using them? And have you even tried the alternative?
Like I said earlier, I don't want to tell anyone what to use. But I do want to address some of the reasons given in this thread as to why some like the fog option:
"Fog is less disruptive to the thermal layer." Can someone....anyone.... please, please, please tell me how we can extinguish a fire without disrupting the thermal layer? It's absurd. The thermal layer is not our friend. The thermal layer is created by high heat in an area. Why do we want to protect high heat?
"Combo nozzles will penetrate just as far as smoothbores if you just increase the pressure." IMO, and speaking generally, we should use the least amount of pressure possible while still getting the job done. Increased pressures are more likely to come with operator error and/or equipment failure. Increased pressures will generally require more work to be done by the nozzle team. Yes, technique counts. Yes, the backup position can make a huge difference. But more work is still more work. With light staffing, this can be a big factor.
"Fog is needed for hydraulic ventilation." Hydraulic ventilation generally takes place after the fire is controlled. This is a lower priority than extinguishment and should have less importance in the discussion. If you use a smoothbore with stacked tips, you can remove the tip and shut nozzle partially to achieve a broken stream that will vent effectively. Put the tip in you pocket. Not a big deal.
"Fog offers better protection to nozzle team in case of flashover." How can a room flash when there's an operating hoseline in that room? We should be using the stream well ahead of our position to cool the area as we advance. No one should be advancing into the hottest area of the strucure and then opening the nozzle when they get there. If this is how you are fighting fires, nozzle selection is the least of your problems.Unless you are fighting a small localized fire in the incipient stage. If that's the case then go right in and open the nozzle when you get there.
"You can use the air from the fog stream if you get in a bind." This is pretty much just silly and was addressed by another member. Please be careful which fairytales you decide to believe. I don't recommend trying to suck up fresh air through the cracks between floor boards either. Yes I've heard that one suggested too.
"Fog allows water to break up into smaller molecules which cool the fire quicker and allow for less water usage." Water is not broken up to a molecular level by ANY type of nozzle. Water is broken up into steam by HEAT. The high heat we encounter at typical room and contents fires will break up the water from even a solid smoothbore stream almost instantly. Any advantage from smaller particles of water from a fog pattern would barely be noticeable. I've seen too many times how quickly a room darkens down with smoothbore water. Someone posted that 15 gallons of water converted to steam would extinguish a 12x20 fully involved room. I flat out don't believe this. You may darken down such a room, but we could do that just by keeping windows and doors shut. Hell, most fires will darken down on their own due to lack of air. There is a world of difference between darkening down and extinguishment. Once you open up a handline, the area will suffer water damage. 50 gallons vs 250 gallons doesn't make much of a difference. Especially when you throw in heat and smoke damage, Room will have to be gutted either way, most likely. And water damage prevention is secondary to the importance of fast knockdown of the fire.
"Solid stream from smoothbore may cause structural damage or bore through sheetrock or plaster." Any building that is structurally unsound to the point that a handline could be dangerous should not have a handline operating in it. You should be exterior. Boring through sheetrock or plaster just doesn't happen. This sounds like one of those fairy tales. I'm sure it's possible if you were to go out of your way to make it happen. But we are talking about fire attack here. The nozzle should be kept moving during attack. Whip it around the room and off the ceiling. No intact walls or ceilings will suffer much damage.
Remeber I address interior structural firefighting only. Fog patterns do have other effective uses. But for interior structural firefighting I say keep it as simple as possible. Put as much water where it can cool the area as you can as quickly as you can. Good things will happen.
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