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Concealed Carry and fires
Maybe an odd question, but the other day I was looking at sub-compact pistols and revolvers for concealed carry (yes, I have the necessary training and permit), and the thought crossed my mind... do you think there could be potential problems with concealed carry and working a fire? In theory, your PPE should protect your firearm from thermal exposure just like it does you, but we don't live in that neat little town called Theory.
And the more I think about it, I'm thinking this question more affects the volunteers than full time FF's; a full-time knows when he's on duty, and even if he carries while off-duty, once he gets to the station (or leaves home for the station), he can remove his holster. But for a volunteer, you never know when you're going to get paged. Do you leave the gun on you, slip it out of the holster and leave in your (locked) vehicle, drop it in the station when you grab your gear....
These are the kinds of things I think about on long drives... the "what-ifs" of life.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Russ Gregston on
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Amen Rick I couldn't agree more. It's a changing enviroment these days and you can either roll with it or leave yourself open. I see a firearm as another and unfortunately necessary tool in the tool box!
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Permalink Reply by Derek J Sinesi on
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Rick, I don't care if someone carries or not. I can tell you even if these guys were carrying the out come would have been the same. They did not see the shooter because he was hiding. We would still have had two Bothers dead and two injured. So we can try to use this instance to justify carrying a concealed or open weapon. Bottom line is when you respond you just don't know. You can say if i'm carrying i'm coming home all you want it doesn't mean a thing. Being in law enforcement you should know this better then anyone. Policemen go out and don't come home because of some wacko out there. Sorry if this upsets anyone just stating the facts. Stay safe.
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Permalink Reply by Jack/dt on
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Seriously Rick? Getting off an engine, full PPE, air packs and concentrating on a fire and you still think that such an ambush is winnable via the appropriate mindset? One FF, injured, was able to escape, the other 3 were pinned down. So wounded/killed, in PPE, taken totally by surprise and carrying handguns (under their PPE) and you think they could have fought their way out?
What I suspect you're suggesting is apparatus with long guns and personnel assigned to a guard detail. So no longer the most honorable profession, rather you would make firefighters essentially an armed SWAT response team. I can think of no better way to make FF's further targets of ambush and assault than by making them LEOs. Two very different professions, btw.
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Permalink Reply by Norm Tindell on
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Brings to mind our age-old discussion about staging when there's the potential for trouble. Might have helped if the dispatcher had realized there was a history of violence at the address in Webster where that fateful event unfolded? I know that's a lot to ask, but many CAD systems "flag" addresses where there's a history of violent behavior.
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Permalink Reply by John Crabbe on
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Yep, gotta love the antiquated opinion that arming everyone will make things so much safer too.
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Permalink Reply by Don Catenacci on
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First of all, NONSENSE to the always on duty line of crap you super vollies like to proclaim. I am a career and 2 department volly on my off days and I will tell you right now you are lying to yourself if you say you are always on duty. Ever drink alcohol? BOOM! Off duty. Ever go on vacation out of town? BOOM! Off duty. Ever been too sick to get out of bed? BOOM! Off duty. Ever been home alone with a sick child? If you are any kind of parent at all...BOOM! Off duty. I swear to God one of the most ridiculous lines of nonsense ever passed by vollies is the I am on duty 24/7/365 load of absolute BULL SHIT.
Secondly, if I were you the first thing I would do is see what your FD policy is on carry a firearm while on a call. All 3 of the FDs I am a member of have CLEARLY stated policies about no firearms in the building or on a call. They are 100% within their rights to establish that as a work rule. I for 1 agree with it 100%. We are firefighters, we are there to do the job as firefighters, we are not cops. Frankly, I am a gun owner myself, but this is one instance where YOUR right to bear arms does not supercede the rules of the agency you are representing and your right to carry is included in that.
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Norm, The police had not had a issue with this guy for years. It would have come off the system years ago. Most county's have certain addresses flagged but if they have not had a issue with said place for a year it comes off.
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First of all sir you don't know me or the situation our department is in I am on call all the time and I take great offense to being called a liar. Quite frankly you can kiss my ass. As for our department policies I wrote them so I know for a fact there is nothing barring me from taking steps to protect myself and I don't care how your department operates not every department is the same so get off your high horse and quit insulting me because my department isn't run exactly like yours!
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Let me preface my comments to Rick by saying I am a gun owner. I believe in my rights as a gun owner under the 2nd ammendment. I believe in concealed carry where it is allowed, and no matter what gun owners believe employers and property owners can restrict you from carry concealed, or open, when at work (including being a volunteer firefighter), or whenever you are on their property.
As usual, I can see that there are still plenty of antiquated opinions out there that object to firefighters being able to protect themselves against violent attackers. Because someone has a different opinion than yours, OR an employer, including a volunteer fire department, sets a policy against firearms on FD property or at emergency scenes doesn't make it antiquated. Anymore than your snide comment makes you avant-garde. Most of them of course probably think "it won't ever happen to me" OR they are administrators who are not on the front lines (first in). So do tell how having a concealed carry weapon, under their turn-outs, would havehelped the 2 firefighters that were shot and killed as they exited their vehicle? Or are you proposing we wear a holster over our turn-outs and open carry? Or perhaps have the MPO have a rifle slung over his shoulder at the pump? Come on, tell me how this will all work...I can't wait. And whether a police officer is a firefighter too, does not matter what he is "acting as" - police officers can NOT be prohibited from carrying when they are performing other duties either... such as that of being a firefighter too...Then I don't want them on the fireground. They should stay being cops. Because when they are a firefighter they have no business doing police duites. To me it is that simple.Whether they CHOOSE not to carry is their own decision, and sadly, maybe to their own, and others' demise. It wouldn't have made one bit of difference in this case. AGAIN, tell me how you would rapidly get at your concealed carry gun under your bunker gear...I'll wait...Further I don't want to enter into a building on fire with someone carry a gun and THAT is my choice. I am a law enforcement officer, a firefighter (training officer and fire service instructor too), EMT (EMS Instructor also), and I teach civilians and law enforcement defense skills & tactics and concealed carry too...Should I be impressed? I know many guys that are cops, volly FFs, EMTs, and instructors. IF the firefighters would have been armed, at least they could have had a fair opportunity to defend themselves against the violent criminal element...And totally destroy in the eyes of those that see us as good guys that image because now we are just like the cops, carrying guns. NO. Again, explain how you will carry and access these concealed carry firearms...Because unless you are carrying them in your bunker gear you CAN'T! And their families and they could have enjoyed another Christmas together. Emotional clap trap that you can't prove. If you example holds true how do trained and armed police officers fall victim? It is easy, because YOU CAN'T PLAN FOR EVERY CONTINGENT AND AN AMBUSH IS JUST THAT, AN UNEXPECTED EVENT. There is NO VALID EXCUSE to justify that ANY law biding citizen, regardless of profession, be denied the right and ability to defend oneself against the law breaking criminal, AND THE IMMEDIATE AVAIILABILITY OF THE TOOLS NECESSARY TO DO SO! Employers and property owners have just as many rights to say what can or can't be on their property or work sites. Your choice if you don't like it go elsewhere or find another job. Sorry your simplistic view of the world can't see that. Again, explain exactly how you would have bunkered out firefighters have quick access to concealed carry weapons? Oh, do tell how you would protect against violent people from disarming these firefighters and using that very weapon on them... Wake up to the society we live in now... At least two police officers died also on December 24th...One of them in the city work in as a firefighter. It appears she was ambushed. And more and more firefighters and EMTs are being slaughtered while responding to calls as they strive to save the lives of others. Let's see some numbers before you use that as a hysterical reason for arming firefighters. Give those that want it, training in concealed carry, safety & personal defense with the firearm, laws regarding the use of force & deadly force, and the blessing of their peers to have the option to exercise their Constitutionally guaranteed rights to live another day in the pursuit of happiness, to defend oneself legally against violent attack -You have no right to carry on property where the owners have said no firearms, you do not have the right to carry where an employer has said no firearms. It is that smple...Again if you aren't happy go elsewhere or get a different job. to have another day with their familiies Nice use of emotion instead of actual facts, because in reality you can't prove this point, and never will be able to. To anyone who is against the rights I just commented on, maybe you should move to another country for a while where those rights are not guaranteed, and see what its like, or maybe you should seek to demote yourself back to the rank of basic firefighter, and be sent in first into these high crime areas, without protection yourselves...Ah, the standard if you don't believe what I believe right wing BULL SHIT "You just ain't American enough for me so leave" kiss my ass...read the Constitution you like to quote and show me where it says that. Guys like you that spout that kind of crap to support their argument make me want to puke. Who the fuck do you think you are? Judge, jury, and executioner? Sorry NO! I am all for RESPONSIBLE carry by as many who choose to do so. So am I. Where appropriate and fire and ems calls aren't appropriate. If you are that scared to go on normal calls get the police to respond to every call. I CARRY ON FIRE AND EMS CALLS...You wouldn't here, not on any FD I am on and that is that. I don't care if you are a cop, you aren't when you are on a call for the fire department. My crews know it and actually like that fact! We have a few CCW licensees who also do, and I LIKE THAT TOO. Good for you, this isn't the old west, and I am not Wyatt Earp. I am a firefighter and I have a job to do that doesn't include having my hand on my concealed carry gun while trying to fight fire or administer medical assistance.
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Rick,
You are an ass. Now you are blaming those brave firefighters for their own deaths because they aren't a super hero like you. How about you shut the hell up.
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You never leave town, you never drink alcohol, you are never sick, your children are never sick, you don't have a job? Yeah sure...
I don't care how your FD operates and frankly if a volly FD expected me to respond 24/7/365 and never leave town, never dink alcohol, come to a call when I was sick, come to a call if I was home alone with sick kids, or not go to work so I never missed a call I would tell them to kiss my ass.
I actually had an officer on one Volly FD I was on ask me where I worked. I told him I taught for the tech college and I would be gone most Monday through Thursday afternoons into night teaching. He said well, I am not sure how that is going to work, we like our guys to be available 24/7. I looked him right in the eye and said well if you want me available like that pay me. Otherwise I am going to go to my job and I will be here when I can because I need to pay my bills. It was never brought up again...
As for your ridiculous concept of what being a volly is "Keep drinking the Kool-Aid Super Hero..."
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Haven't been sick in 18 years, self employed, don't drink, kids are grown and on their own and I don't drink kool aid too much sugar and only my wife calls me "Super Hero" And I don't call people names or attack their character
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