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Permalink Reply by Frank David Harrisson Sr. on July 1, 2012 at 7:54am

Wisconsin is not Alabama or Georgia. I would like to see you work when the HI reaches 110F to 115F. That is why we had our main meal of the day called dinner at noon then rest until about 1500 and work until sunset. Wearing Bunker gear under those conditions will cause certain Hypothermia, heat exhaustion, or stroke. There is speculation at present that blame the PPE's for causing coronary attacks.

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Permalink Reply by John Crabbe on July 1, 2012 at 8:29am

 I would like to see you work when the HI reaches 110F to 115F

 

As if heat and humidity is solely isolated to the south??

 

 Wearing Bunker gear under those conditions will cause certain Hypothermia, heat exhaustion, or stroke. There is speculation at present that blame the PPE's for causing coronary attacks.

 

Your speculation of PPE leading to coronary attacks is just as absurd as your defensive of this video and the defense of something so blatantly out of date. The PPE itself does NOT lead to coronary attacks and blaming it on PPE is ridiculous.

 

In reality there is REHAB which should be done on a fireground to prevent heat exhaustion, hyperthermia, and so forth to prevent FF injuries or worse. A good fire dept would understand that as opposed to defending moronic tactics like we see here.

 

You see REHAB is another reality that has evolved in the fire service over the years, as science and studies reflected the need for more and better rehab assessment. It is also another reason to have enough personnel on scene for a good rotation to get the job done while protecting firefighters.

 

Yes the PPE is heavy and can contribute to heat related injuries and emergencies for FFs, which is the reason that rehab and rotation of personnel is imperative. It is also why FFs should be hydrating throughout the day to be ready so as not to be a heat related statistic. It is also imperative that the dept's leadership understands the importance of rehab and monitoring FFs during such high temps (or lows for that matter).

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Permalink Reply by Jack/dt on July 1, 2012 at 9:28am

I suggest you visit USFA for some data on FF deaths.

From 1977-1986, the number of vollies vs. career deaths from MI/CVA were about equal, surprising because at the time, about 80% of all FFs were vollies so career were experiencing a disproportionate number of deaths (although realistically, they saw much more fire on a daily/shift basis than did vollies so they were actually fighting more fires.)

But the numbers from 1986 to present begin to change.  Even though the number of fires nationally begin to drop there is a slide in the ratio of vollie vs career deaths.  Over the last10-15 years the number of vollie deaths has become about 60% of the total.  The majority of those deaths are MI/CVA and 80% of the FFs are over the age of 45, disproportionately volunteers.

In short, the number of career FF deaths have dropped, likely a result of better hiring/screening practices, training and annual physicals whereas the on the vollie side there are random/haphazard hiring/screening practices, typically at best minimal physical requirements as well as physicals, seldom are there annual physicals and training can be all over the board.

But the greatest danger of dying as a volunteer FF is a direct result of age.  The age of most volunteer LODD is 50 or older and typically are the rank of firefighter.  In other words, whereas on the paid side those that are getting long in the tooth (>45) are Chief Officers, on the vollie side they're still pulling hose.  Combine that with the fact that (most) career FFs have to pass an annual physical whereas most vollies don't.  So typically, 60% of all FF LODDs are volunteer, about 70% of those are MI/CVA and 80% of THOSE are over the age of 55.

I really don't think that what's killing firefighters is PPE.  What's killing them is being a volunteer, poor conditioning, big, greasy mid-day meals and being older than 50. (and what's killing a lot of paid FFs is exposure to CO, cyanide and other insidious gases and chemicals through direct exposure (still NOT wearing proper/all PPE.))

Make you a deal Frank, you work to reduce all the unnecessary (80%) deaths on the volunteer side (like...I dunno, no one over 60) and once you accomplish that, we'll talk about not wearing PPE.

FYI I've worked construction -concrete slab, concrete block, steel and roofing) in daily temperatures of 100+ degrees (and high humidity).  Plenty of water, light meal, steady but easy with frequent breaks (and a 1/2 for lunch at noon).  Unless you're still walking behind a horse hitched up to a plow, mostly you're blowing smoke.

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Permalink Reply by 3us8225bsp2fp on July 1, 2012 at 11:24am

I agree, maybe that fire department does not have enough money to provide gear for everyone or perhaps this is their second fire in one day and their gear got burned up in the first fire. 

While safety comes first and we need to be more careful and safety conscious when in a very rural setting when the other closest fire department is 30 minutes away you do what you can with what you have while still trying to be safety conscious.

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Permalink Reply by Don Catenacci on July 1, 2012 at 8:22pm

Wisconsin is not Alabama or Georgia.  You are right it is not.  THANK GOD! I would like to see you work when the HI reaches 110F to 115F.  How about working when the temp reaches between 95 and 105 with over 90% humidity?  Once again Frank, nice try.  Farmers here work through that heat.  They can't afford to waste 4 hours out of the middle of the day.  That is why we had our main meal of the day called dinner at noon then rest until about 1500 and work until sunset.  Only sunset huh?  It is not unusual to see farmers around here work well into the night when planting or harvesting.   Wearing Bunker gear under those conditions will cause certain Hypothermia (psst...the word is hyperthermia), heat exhaustion, or stroke.  Not if you pay attention to current trends in the fire service, and actually rehab is nothing new.  When conditions are that hot you ned to get guys out of their gear, cooled off, hydrated, and then they can go back to work.   There is speculation at present that blame the PPE's for causing coronary attacks.  There is also specualtion, actually well documented factual information, that not wearing gear can get you burned, injured otherwise, smoke inhalation, and the inability to go inside and rescue people.  As for me, anytime I am in the hot zone of an incident I am wearing the proper PPE.  I will not apologize for doing the job properly and not making excuses for why I shouldn't do it properly.

 

It isn't the 1950's anymore and we should accept the risk of firefightin without proper PPE.

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Permalink Reply by Don Catenacci on July 1, 2012 at 8:36pm

I don't disagree that one of the proudest traditions of the volunteer fire service is the willingness to serve the community, and help out their friends and neighbors, for little or no compensation.

The part that I adamantly disagree with is the idea that because we are volunteers we need to suffer along with old, obsolete, broken down, second hand, junk for equipment, including PPE and SCBA.  Sorry NO, that is simply not acceptable in this day and age.  Frankly, if you don't have the minimum of proper PPE and SCBA you are a sham of a fire department anyways.  No one is saying go out and buy a $300K brand new fire engine.  Heck my first volly FD went from buying new in 1926 to not buying new again until 1992.  What did we do in the meantime?  We bought used and the most expensive used engine we bought cost $34K.  What did we do about PPE?  We scrounged from neighboring departments, and bought government surplus until our budget improved enough to buy 2 or 3 sets of new gear a year.  Same with SCBA, it didn't take us long to realize that 4 obsolete SCBA weren't cutting it.  We looked for used SCBA and we bought 16 used SCBAs.  WE used these until we got our SCBA grant in 2003.

 

the reality is it is the DUTY of those we serve to supply us with proper PPE and SCBA.  If they can't, or more likely won't, then I have no obligation to risk my safety for them.  You can call me all the names you want to, I am no safety freak, but proper PPE and SCBA is my minimum for entry. 

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Permalink Reply by Don Catenacci on July 1, 2012 at 10:39pm

In my post above the sentences,

How about working when the temp reaches between 95 and 105 with over 90% humidity?  Once again Frank, nice try.  Farmers here work through that heat.  They can't afford to waste 4 hours out of the middle of the day.

were mine and should have been in bold type!

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Permalink Reply by Don Catenacci on July 1, 2012 at 10:56pm

Damn it,!

It isn't the 1950's anymore and  WE SHOULDN'T accept the risk of firefighting without proper PPE.

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Permalink Reply by Jeff Pearson on July 1, 2012 at 11:40pm

500 calls per day........that's over 20 per hour. You guys are damn good, getting each done in 3 minutes.

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Permalink Reply by John Crabbe on July 1, 2012 at 11:55pm

500 calls a day is dept wide, not company. Given the size and number of companies of a bigger city like DC, 500 calls a day is likely, but it is spread out amongst all companies.

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Permalink Reply by Stacy Barnett on July 2, 2012 at 12:17am

Regardless of the discussion of who's better, who's got more balls, and all of that stuff, I have a question. Why would any department allow someone who is not in gear to be up front on the line when there are individuals on scene who ARE in gear?!? The FF who have gear can do the same job and be protected better than the one's who are in street clothes. And if they don't have gear for whatever reason, they could be operating the pumps or assisting from a distance. It's not a matter of who has more balls... It's a matter of EVERYONE being safe! I have been on scene without gear (only because my department couldn't afford it yet) but I kept a somewhat safe distance while assisting the one's who did have gear.

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Permalink Reply by Moose on July 2, 2012 at 9:21am

Nick, they had more than one firefighter in the foreground of the video wearing PPE, one had a pack on, why, if they are that safety conscious are they not using the line instead of the two guys without anything at all???  One of those guys on the line looks to be in his 60's.......Is that safety conscious?

Doing what you can with what you have is hitting this fire with the deck gun and blitzing it to keep it knocked down untill more help arrives, or using the few guys you have in gear use a large master stream safely; not what these guys did.

Stay Safe

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