Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Frank David Harrisson Sr. on June 29, 2012 at 6:21pm

You simply still do not get it. A fire company in the country simply does not get the attention as a fire company in a metropolitan area. In the country environment that pumper sits in the fire house simply does not get the attention nor even moves out of the fire house except when there is a fire call, not unlike the fire buckets back in colonial days. To get you city folks straight a farmer's day starts at daybreak, he feeds his livestock before breakfast. After breakfast he is out plowing, cultivating, or ferilizing his farm. At the 1100 or thereabouts he takes dinner and rest till about 1500 then he goes back out to the fields and this goes on for six days and Sundays they go to church. In the winter time they are fixing fences, plows, and equipment for the next spring. They do not have te time to take on the training that you guys do have. Yet on a fire call and do get the job done. As far as as LODD is concerned about volies that is a misapropiated comparison, some Volunteer Fire Companies like in Delaware County Pennsylvanina could put some of your career firefighters to shame, I know that from experiance.

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Permalink Reply by Jack/dt on June 29, 2012 at 7:05pm

Frank,

Please stop with down home homilies, we get it, you don't like 'city folk' and 'country folk' are god's people.  Moving on:

You did what you did with what you had, as did so many other departments.  Point is times change, fires are more dangerous, there are more chemicals in the smoke.  Times past you breathed in smoke, you puked and moved on.  Not that way anymore, a one time exposure can be all it takes to make you very sick or cause cancer.

It's about education (something I'm sure you'll have an opinion on as well).  You made the comment that folks in Alabama are lucky to have folks who'll stick their neck out, sad fact is, those same folks don't give enough of a rat's ass to give them the money they need to buy the PPE so they don't get sick, injured or die.  For you to go on about city folk and country folk is absurd, it's about protecting our own.  If you think it's fine that those poor bastards have no PPE, no training, and no community support then the problem is people like you.

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Permalink Reply by Derek R. on June 29, 2012 at 8:58pm

Hey Frank, I have to say, and sorry for butting in, I'm a volunteer firefighter, like you were. (actually, not at all like you were). And you are doing absolutely no good for the defense of those of us (vollies) who take this shit seriously. "Never criticize another..." blah blah blah. Bullshit. I would never be a part of that "fire company". Not when they operate  in the total disregard for their own safety and the safety of those around them.

A lot of probable's in your statement, which mean absolutely nothing since they are non-factual. I believe you don't actually know the operation procedures of this particular dept, but you choose to defend their actions in what seems to be your effort to show you were once a bad ass fire slayer with 50+ years in, trying to tell a story to all us young whipper-snappers of life as a firefighter way back when.  And one who decided not to advance with technology because you had no fear of the way things were then.

Listen Frank, I respect my elders and officers, however, I find it hard to do so when such garbage is spewed from one who must have seen some crap in his day, and didn't give it a thought as to how it could be changed for the better. And when changes HAVE been made that have been proven to help us fight the battle, you choose not to fallow.

As was previously stated, fire and smoke of today is very different from years ago with all the synthetics being used. What was once simple wood burning smoke with a little C0 exhaust, in now smoke filled with many poisons and combinations of chemicals. And with that brings on your cancers and deaths. So I will damn sure be using my fancy clothes and gadgets when it comes time to work.

You say many times that "they" still get the job done. Ok, yah, the fire was put out. But at what cost? Or does that matter to you? Do you give a shit that these guys are inhaling varying amounts of poisons? Do you give a shit that these guys are operating without any means of coordination. Do you give a shit that they likely don't realize what they are doing to themselves? (I say "likely" because if they had realized, they wouldn't be doing it).

Congrats to you Frank for your 50+ years of service. Not sure how active you were, and not really concerned. And sure, a farmer's life is a little busier than most. But that is no excuse for stupidity. If you have no time to train, or raise money for better equipment, then maybe VFF is not a thing for you. There are other other ways to help the community. Leave the firefighting to those who know what they're doing from being able to put the time in.

You weren't training officer by any chance were you?

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Permalink Reply by Bob Bennett on June 29, 2012 at 9:48pm

I have been a firefighter for 35 yrs. and yes I have walked in there shoes and lucky to be alive today.

But then I went and got trained the right way to do this job and yes I am a volunteer. I was that guy 35 yrs ago. Until we smartened up. I bet this is on face book already. When the insurance people and niosh and osha sees this They will be all over is. Maybe all departments wake up. when they see this. I'v even seen paid departments do the same thing. WAKE UP. and stop killing firefighters for no reason. Wear the proper P.P.E. and GET TRAINED. 

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Permalink Reply by Bill Anderson on June 30, 2012 at 4:50am

I disagree. I'm part of a rural department, and our policy is if there is smoke, you better be on air. We TAKE the time to make sure everyone is bunked out and packed up on arrival. This "we don't have the time " line is BS. You MAKE the time to have ALL of your PPE on. In actuality, it doesn't take that much time. So what's the problem? You must be the last of the iron lungers.

As far as resources, we have our own cascade system, 2 engines, 2(soon to be) 3 grass trucks, a tanker, plenty air packs and bottles,  and an EMS squad. The oldest is a 2001. We know how to budget and spend wisely.

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Permalink Reply by Frank David Harrisson Sr. on June 30, 2012 at 11:24am

I sure started a firestorm. Dereck said it right, "You use what you have." That is the point of my comments. One other commentor asks "Where is the Chief, where is the Safety Officer?" I do not know if they even have one. Could be the guy holding the hose was the Chief? Could be he could have told that younger guy with the turnout gear on to back off, I've got it? Everyone is thinking that I come from a rural fire company. No, I come from a heavily industrial metropolitan area surrounded by Wilmington Delaware, Chester Pennsylvania, and Philadelphia and I used to make about 80 per cent of the approximately 300 fire calls per year. I was both a volunteer and a career firefighter. Yes, I was also a training officer. I did on several occasions go to farm country and help the farmers help themselves. I was trying to get you folks into thinking what if it was you? Look at this way. You have a thousand acre farm. The same with maybe a dozen other farms. Now we all have barns, houses and other out buildings. We all have livestock. We all have a tractor or two that cost $150 Thousand each. The nearest fire company is 30 miles away. It so happens that we need a new Combine for harvesting that costs $350 Thousand each and it is only used for about three weeks of the year. Now we think about a fire occuring what do we do? None of us can afford a new Engine Pumper so we pool together and get a used one and park it next to the Combine in the Barn. We do not have a formal fire company we just have each other. It is tradition that farmers help each other when disaster strikes and they do everything humanly possable to mitigate that fire wether it is a structure or field. The farmers that I worked with dug out very large ponds for use as Irregation reservoirs, they have pumps capable of 1250 GPM each. Many of them even added dry hydrants about their property that drafted out of that same pond. The only thing I did for them was to teach them on how to use the Pumper. That pumper maybe got out on a fire call twice a year. On the farm choices are slim, one has to sell a lot of potatoes or corn or cotton just to buy a Combine or a Tractor and this is his livelyhood. I used to drop off some of our used equipment, boots, bunker coats, and helmets to help them out. It was fun doing it and I used to eat real good out there. For the curious read my bio called "Fire and Water".

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Permalink Reply by Don Catenacci on June 30, 2012 at 4:19pm

Frank,

You boys and girls of the latter day have not a clue!  And what clue do you have if you believe what is in that video is acceptable today?  What went on 50 or a hundred yeats ago still goes on today, you have a fire, go pour water on it.  Oh really?  So you believe fires of today are the same as fires 100 years ago?  ABSOLUTE NONSENSE!  The fires of today aren't even the fires of 35 years ago when I started.  The majority of everything in homes today is made of synthetics.  Those synthetics give off toxic gasses that are both immediately deadly, and insidiously deadly, in that maybe they don't kill you for 10 or 20 years when that weird brain or liver cancer hits you.  Without proper PPE and SCBA you are exposing yourself to those fire by-products.  It is that simple.     Nothing has changed particularly in the deep rural volunteer fire companies.  And that is PATHETIC.  Both in that you accept it and that your communities don't give enough of a damn about you to support you adequately.  We are invincible and we get the job done, get that?  No, you are uninformed, foolish, and willing to accept that as long as you continue to do what you do and demand nothing more you are never going to get anything more.  Frankly, if those I serve don't care enough about me to give me the proper tools to be a firefighter then I don't care enough about them to be injured, or die needlessly, for them. I have to laugh at all y'all in the big cities and wealthy suburbs with allof that modern equipment, special training, and the latest in PPE's. Folks, our equipment are usually hand downs or they are at least 20 years old. Some of us have PPE's and a lot of us do not.  Then step up and go to your community and say from now on we will only allow those with PPE anywhere near the fire.  The rest will be used for support activities such as pump operator, changing bottles, rehab, or driving tankers.  Also, tell them you will no longer do offensive fire attack and only do your best to stop the fire from spreading.  Once they support you enough to equip, and properly train, your firefighters then you will resume interior firefighting.  But when Hell breaks loose we will match any of y'all.  NO you won't.  Because my crew will be in full PPE and SCBA going inside to fight the fire and save lives.  Your crew with no PPE and no SCBA will be standing out side doing a surround an drown.  No, as much as you want to pretend it is true, you won't match my small rural paid on call fire department.     Funny thing here, I am 78 Yaers old and still kicking and no cancer.  Good for you.  Maybe you'll be the lucky one.  Maybe it hits you next year.  Maybe you haven't seen as many fires in 60 years than I have in 35.  Maybe you never went inside.  Who knows.   My firefighting days started in 1950 and I fininshed up and retired in 2010.  Congratulations.  Too bad it sounds like you and your department didn't do anything to change in 60 years.  Those folks in Alabama are lucky to have folks who volunteer will stick their necks out for them.  I stick my neck out for my friends and neighbors in 2 different communities as a paid on call firefighter, and for the citizens in another as a career firefighter.  I just choose not to foolishly risk my safety by not wearing proper PPE or an SCBA if I am in smoke.

 

The truth is we need to stop accepting left overs, crap, obsolete junk, and worn out hand me downs, as acceptable equipment in the volunteer fire service.  For far too long the citizens of these communities have taken advantage of volunteer firefighters that do put life and limb on the line to offer fire protection.  It simply is NOT acceptable anymore to expect people to risk everything with less than proper safety equipment.

You may not like what I have to say...so be it.  I won't be on a fire department that won't supply me with proper equipment and proper training.

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Permalink Reply by Don Catenacci on June 30, 2012 at 4:45pm

You simply still do not get it.  I get it.  Believe me I do.  A fire company in the country simply does not get the attention as a fire company in a metropolitan area.  Really?  Wow!  Thanks for that insight.  In the country environment that pumper sits in the fire house simply does not get the attention nor even moves out of the fire house except when there is a fire call, not unlike the fire buckets back in colonial days.  If that is true and you never take the truck out other than fires, when do you train?  Because it sounds like you are saying you NEVER train.   To get you city folks straight a farmer's day starts at daybreak, he feeds his livestock before breakfast. After breakfast he is out plowing, cultivating, or ferilizing his farm. At the 1100 or thereabouts he takes dinner and rest till about 1500 then he goes back out to the fields and this goes on for six days and Sundays they go to church. In the winter time they are fixing fences, plows, and equipment for the next spring.  Huh, you take a 4 hour rest mid day?  Huh, I have never known a Wisconsin farmer to take 4 hours off like that in the middle of the day.  Care to tell me why you need to do that?  You see Frank, I live in RURAL Wisconsin and we have these things called farms around here.  I know guys that work from sun up til the wee hours of the next morning during planting and harvesting season.   They do not have te time to take on the training that you guys do have.   Guys that are on fire deartments here seem to find the time to train.  Obviously some times of the year they are less available than others, but they make up for it other times of the year.  Yet on a fire call and do get the job done.  I guess that depends on your definition of getting the job done...I think our definitions would be different.   As far as as LODD is concerned about volies that is a misapropiated comparison, some Volunteer Fire Companies like in Delaware County Pennsylvanina could put some of your career firefighters to shame, I know that from experiance.  A firefighter death is a firefighter death, it makes no difference if it is a volunteer or a career firefighter.  The only difference is if the death could have been avoided through better PPE and/or better training.

 

By the way, I am in no way attacking your local volunteers...But we have as many responsibilities to ourselves to proptect our firefighters with proper equipment as we do our citizens.

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Permalink Reply by Frank David Harrisson Sr. on June 30, 2012 at 4:57pm

Sorry about that Sir and I did fight at about 80 percent of the 300 alarms we received every year. Oh, yes everyone in our fire company was TRUE VOLUNTEER, we were paid nothing for anything and we paid our membership dues. It is too bad sir that you would refuse to render aid to anyone in peril unless you were dolled out in your PPE. To get to the scope of my commentary you will have to post around inside. But it gets down to this. A farmer has a lot of expences, feed for livestock at 10g, seed and fertilizer for the ground at 1g/Acre, a tractor or two that costs him 150k and a combine that costs him 350k that is only used three weeks of the year. Where is the money for a fire truck or PPE's? The nearest town is 30 miles away and the county cannot afford buying a fire truck and a facility to house it. Why, because farm income would not support the taxes to buy the equipment. Therefore the farmers do the best they can to help each other and that second hand truck gets parked right next to the brand new combine in the barn. When it comes down to a choice of buying a piece of equipment that supports my livelyhood against having a firetruck that may never leave the barn, well I think the choice would be easy. Now if you do not like that tough, the farmers look out for each other and that is the way that volunteer fire companies original philosophy was the commonwheal and safety of the community regardless of the assets afforded by the community.

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Permalink Reply by Don Catenacci on June 30, 2012 at 5:39pm

Frank,

Feel as superior as you feel you need to.  All I hear from you is excuses and that is a common problem with so many volunteer firefighters.  Excuses don't get the job done RIGHT.  My guess is the majority of time the good old boy type of FD you are glorifying gets called out they get there too late to make a difference and usually are lucky to not lose the original building and then a few more on the property.  That to me is NOT getting the job done.

Seriously, do you think your example is the only place in the world with farmers, people that work, and people that pay taxes?  Sorry dream on.

The first FD I was on was a small rural VFD.  We had a 1950 pumper, and 1937 pumper, an a 1949 tender.  We had 6 turnout coats and 4 SCBA.  That was in 1977, guess what?  We didn't sit on our butts and accept that as all we would ever have.  We fund raised, we went to the village board and got them to increase our budget, and we went after all the grants we could.

History is great, thanks for sharing it.  Times change and continuing to accept things that aren't up to snuff isn't anything to be proud of, or to brag about.

Maybe instead of sitting around grousing about taxes and patting yourself on the back for the last foundation you saved you should try for a grant, maybe you could actually buy some new equipment. 

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Permalink Reply by Clay Reynolds on June 30, 2012 at 6:48pm

  Frank, you sure did start a firestorm with your comments whether they where done with tongue in cheek or not I think you sir are missing a key point to some of the comments. 

  I do belong to a rural dept. that makes approximate 180 calls a year (with only maybe 20 of them fires) and 90% of them are farmers.  We have trainings and when it's planting or harvesting time we know that the turnout is gonna be pretty slim and those that miss will make it up.

  That brings me to the point of some of the replies to your comments and that is training.  Training on how to do the job properly which should include wearing proper ppe.  When the engine doesn't leave the station but twice a year for a fire is no excuse for not knowing the proper way to operate at a scene and that is what I believe the video is showing, TRAINING is what drives home the way to operate and that includes common sense,   Have I been on a scene where a firefighter in his "civilian" clothes picked up a hose to cool off a shed next to a burning barn, yes but the hose was quickly given up when the proper geared up firefighter arrived.

  Your comments about the farmers mentality of hard work is proven on our dept. because you'll be hard pressed to find another dept. that'll bust their humps to help save a neighbors barn or house but just because we'll work hard doesn't mean common sense goes out the window.  That same farmer/firefighter knows not to plant when it's too wet in the fields and they certaintly know not to breathe in that nasty smoke at a fire.

  Yes I also understand that not every dept. can afford the latest and greatest equipment however common sense doesn't cost that much.  Every member on our dept. has gear but there have been times at a scene where there gear wasn't with them so guess what they did, run the engine, drive the tanker, or be the gopher for tools and bottles.  I do feel for the depts. that can't afford gear for every member but there are other avenues that can be seeked to obtained the gear it just takes work, hard work like what a farmer does.  If only a minimumal amount of gear can be obtained then that's the hand you're dealt and have to work with but use common sense.

  These same hard working farmers don't farm with horses like 100 years ago so don't fight fires like it was 100 years ago.  Where there's a will there's a way, make it work.

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Permalink Reply by Derek R. on June 30, 2012 at 6:48pm

I'm thinking, Frank, that maybe the crew that you are using as an example should remove any signage indication and references to them being volunteer firefighters. Leave them as neighbors helping neighbors, Because, by no means, are they firefighters. They put water on fire, but anyone can do that. But it takes training and proper PPE to do it efficiently and safely with minimal damage. The people in the video are just people who happen to come across a pumper. Not firefighters....water sprayers.

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