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Fire Through the Roof
Does fire through the roof make a single family residence modern construction an automatic defensive operation in your department?
Please include the following information in your response.
1. Your department type (Career, volunteer, part-time, or combo) Not for judgement but for perspective reasons.
2. Your Departments avg annual run load.
3.Reasons that support strategy.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Moose on
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Gentlemen, I was not specific enough for you...I never said I was putting faith in what bystanders are telling us on arrival, I stated "If there is no life threat and all occupants are accounted for" meaning after a search the house is cleared...
If we do a search and the house is clear of life threats, and the fire is well advanced, Im not jeopardizing my crew. You guys can if you want to, but I am not putting my firefighters in harms way if there is no life at stake. I am an aggressive firefighter with a brain though, there is a difference between over-aggressive and aggressive with training, knowledge and experience, which I am sure most of you have. If I am IC on the scene of a house fire, and my initial search crews are telling me the structure is clear of victims and the fire is through the roof with partial collapse, we are backing out and going defensive. If the fire is still manageable we will attack it aggressively as manpower allows.
Sorry to confuse you all, I thought I was specific enough without getting too detailed.
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Permalink Reply by capcityff on
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If it's clear enough to get in and do a proper search then why not put the fire out while you're inside? My oath was to protect lives AND property.
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Permalink Reply by Brian Reeves on
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I agree. You can search portions of the home where there may be viable lives.
I believe in being aggressive as well.
Risk a lot to save a lot.
Risk a little, in a highly calculated manner, to save savable property.
Risk nothing at all for what is already lost. People or property.
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Getting ready to start my next discussion.
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Permalink Reply by 55 TRUCK on
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Your are correct sir. 100% correct Cap.
Course you and I are speak Firemen....Not sure what some of these fellows are speaking on here.
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Permalink Reply by Michael McCarthy on
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Volunteer - 1500 runs a year - 30 years experience.
Much more info needs to be presented before a entry decision is made. Ok - its thru the roof but is it just the roof and attic involved (ie; lightning strike) or is it the who second story and roof involved. I guess what anyone would have to do before they make any decision is to size it up properly - is it advanced making it a possible collapse situation or is it in the beginning stages where if u can pull the ceilings and make a good hit on it and knock it down. We can Monday morning quarterback this easily, but a proper size up will determine your course of action.
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Well then we agree to disagree.
I will continue to make sure all firefighters go home to their families, you will continue to populate the LODD lists we all hate reading so much...
But hey...You saved the house for a 24 hour period until the dozers knock it down to build a new one...good save.
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Permalink Reply by Jack/dt on
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"I will continue to make sure all firefighters go home to their families, you will continue to populate the LODD lists..."
That's a bit over the top, Brian. Your statement comes across as though anyone not performing as you suggest are directly responsible for LODDs. Given that many LODDs are a result of MI et. al., the facts alone don't back you up. Especially on the volunteer side, where many of the LODDs are either a result of poor physical conditioning or rolling over tankers ( and tender is the way I prefer my steak).
Around here an engineer from the building department will make the determination as to whether or not a structure needs to come down.
If the engineer decides it's structurally sound and doesn't present a collapse hazard then it is up to the insurance company to further decide the building's fate.
If the fire can be knocked down and the structure saved, even if it is only for 24 hours, it may at least allow either the homeowners or the fire department, to salvage personal belongings, you know, like: pictures, heirlooms, stuffed animals, jewelry, that sort of nonsense.
And I think most of us know at the front door whether or not we can make a reasonably safe attempt at knocking down the fire.
Like capcityff said, "If it's clear enough to get in and do a proper search then why not put the fire out while you're inside? My oath was to protect lives AND property."
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Permalink Reply by Derek R. on
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Hey Moose.
I'm from a low call dept too. Under 200 calls per year. And I realize we are two different dept.s but if there's fire through the roof, we will still go in and save what we can when it is safe to do so,( and yes...put the fire out while we're in there...lol ) even IF there are no victims inside. there are still valuables that can be saved and when the community sees that you care enough to do your best to save their valuables as well, their gratitude at fundraisers may be a little higher, as well as their whole perspective on you.
I think it's great to see fire through the roof. I know where the fire and crap is going. My concern is how long it's been doing that.
And to add to Jack's reply, the 24 hours might also be enough time for the fire marshal/inspector to determine cause of fire for insurance purposes when we are unable to.
We have never had an LODD from fire suppression activities..So your statement of me continuing to populate the lodd list is BS. We will continue to be called fire fighters by our community...not basement savers.
"....lives and property".
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Like Jack said, how many LODDs do you see for large aggressive departments due to them being a little too aggressive? Not many at all. Then compare that small number to the amount of lives and property saved. Definitely worth it in my opinion.
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Jack, its all about the attitude of the firefighter that I am speaking of. When I see firefighters talk the way some of these guys did here about going in no matter what to save a picture...Yes, dont get me wrong I do whatever I can to save a persons livelyhood, when I am inside and see picture albums or photos on the wall I salvage them. In todays world of electronics though...how easy is it to replace digital pictures kept on computer hard drives with backup? Older pictures, yes, save what you can.
Heirlooms and family hand me downs, yes, save what you can. But its the attitude...the "Cowboy, no fear, Im a firefighter get out of my way" attitude that I fear will keep those LODD lists full, and its unfortunate. I am speaking my opinions, as firefighter and officer, and on forums like these its what we are supposed to do, I am not taking pointless jabs at people posting here like some of us are. Lets look at 55 Trucks response...that should speak volumes about the lack of professionalism found in todays fire service; a corny, pointless jab without any usefull information to add to the discussion.
Attitude is my main point, and I speak from experience with 23 years in the service serving 4 departments. When you pull up to a house fire, well involved with about 50-70% involvement, heavy fire and smoke, what is the likelyhood that a civilian with no gear or air tank will survive??? That is what the intent of the "Risk Vs. Benefit" analysis is, and it takes experienced, well trained, level headed officers to make that decision. Dont get me wrong, I have been on quite a few scenes where we are trying to make a rescue attempt, but with the conditions present, survivability low, it takes a lot out of you and I have been in that situation. I want to save lives and I want to save peoples property and personal belongings, but just like with the chance of survival of someone with no protective equipment in a well involved house fire being low, how well do you think the personal belongings will fare unless in a fire proof safe??
Risk Vs. Benefit.
I would love to save everyone, and would love to see the smiles from home owners when you bring them out their wedding albums, or family movie collection...but lets visit the other side too; I also want to see the smiles on our families faces when we return home everyday instead of the tragic grief stricken faces of those families in a funeral procession.
I am passionate about keeping us safe and getting us home, but I am also passionate about helping people, just like you guys, but I use my training and experience to make decisions that effect our lives as well. If you think I am wrong for that...I have nothing else to say. If you want to continue to discuss this matter in a professional way I am all for it, but pointless one liners do nothing for me and I do not respect anyone who uses them without backing it up with facts and discussion.
55Truck, you may be a professional firefighter, but at least prove it by your actions and responses in these forums and share your wisdom and experiences in a more proactive way.
Derek, you are right and I agree, I save as much as I can and sometimes I get the brunt of fireground jokes aimed at me because every time I exit a house fire I have an armfull of personal belongings that I put somewhere safe until the homeowner can get them. But you need to look at my point a little more here, isnt our personal safety an important thing to both our families and the people we serve?? If we die trying to save a house full of destroyed personal property and no life threat, making the fire insurance for the district increase and the taxpayers burden heavier, what have we accomplished?? If I arrive on scene and there is no one outside the house, cars in the drive and locks on the door Im making every effort to search the entire building for life, even if someone tells me no one is home and the house is empty I will make a primary search for life and grab what i can to save. But when it comes down to it,firefighters are my primary concern, and If I am doing a sizeup that makes my sphincter pucker and sends all sorts of red flares up, the only life I would jeopardize would be my own. I would not order any of my crew inside, if they follow me in, they are taking the same risk I am, but I am not an officer at that point, I am a firefighter who wants to help.
Capcity, I respect you, and I see what you are trying to say, but I see it differently. Every city, career department I have seen in action are agressive, because of their training, high call volumes and experience they can be. Naturally their LODD rates are higher. But again, this is my opinion and I have no facts to back it up right now. I just hope everyone see's that i am merely speaking for the safety of firefighters and the need to make sure we all go home to our families. I meant no disrespect to any of you, but you all seem to take it that way. Im here for the same reasons you are; save lives and property. But history has taught us to be more intelligent when making decisions on the fireground to save that life without loosing one of our own.
Stay safe everyone.
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