The Social Network & Community JUST for Firefighters
Shane Ray's "Rethinking Volunteer Firefighter Certification" article will make some waves...
The new superintendant of the South Carolina Fire Academy asks some tough question and offers some creative solutions to the problem of volunteer firefighter certification and just what that should mean.
Here's the article: http://www.firefighternation.com/article/training-0/rethinking-volu...
It is thought-provoking, to say the least. What do you guys think?
Replies to This Discussion
-
Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on
-
Since no one has actually used a dictionary definition of "firefighter" in this discussion yet, here are some...
n. A member of a fire department who fights fires.
http://www.answers.com/topic/firefighter#ixzz1tCN9lbI5n. a person who fights fires.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/firefighter
n. somebody who puts out fires: somebody who attempts to control or extinguish fires, and to rescue people or animals from danger.
http://www.bing.com/Dictionary/search?q=define+firefighter&qpvt...
n. A member of a fire department who fights fires.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/firefighter
n. a person who fights destructive fires.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Firefighter
No mention of what kind of fires, no mention of what qualifications, no mention of individual opinions of exactly what qualifications are required, how many firefighters must be present at the scene, or what individual or team duties are at the scene - just simple definitions.
By those definitions, anyone who is a member of a fire department and fights fires is a firefighter.
-
-
How about the air tanker pilots who drop water and fire retardant on wildland interface fires that include structures? When they die in aircraft crashes while fighting those fires, they are considered Firefighter LODDs.
Some of their names are on the plaques at the National Fallen Firefighter Memorial at the National Fire Academy. Are you now going to claim that it's somehow "obsfucation" to make mention of this real-world situation?
-
-
So, a firefighter with NFPA 1001 Firefighter II qualifications that has spent the last 10 years (hypothetically, of course) driving and operating a pump, but has done no interior firefighting in that time - how do we classify him?
"Firefighter"?
"Pump Only"?
"Former Firefighter still employed by the Fire Department?"
"Something else"?
Just wondering...
-
-
So, fire departments in the situation Bob described should just let the house burn because we know it will be a few minutes until more than 6 interior firefighters arrive?
Is that what you are saying? If not, then what are you saying?
How does that situation line up with "protect property"?
-
Permalink Reply by Derek J Sinesi on
-
Don, We do not use different color turn out for our guys. Well Newbie's get a Yellow helmet with green stickers on them this way we can pick them out quick and make sure they are just on lookers at any scene and they must report to the station and can ride to the scene in the squad with the fire police and have to check in with the IC upon arrival. We also have on are id tags green for interior, red exterior and because we are smart enough to know we can not possibly waste that much time on a scene looking at id tags we put numbers on the helmets. 1 is scene support / exterior only. 2 is a guy who has been though FF1 but we feel is not ready to be interior yet. They can go in during overhaul with a line officer or someone a line officer has assigned him or her to. 3 is FF that has been SCBA certified by our chiefs and has taking FF2. So this is what we do in are department. It works well because we can tell in a glance who is who and what we are going to have them do. We are a all volunteer department with 37 members and are lucky enough to have 25 certified interior FF's. 4 Fire Police which have all taking FF1 or FF essentially (because they are that old). 5 taking FF1 right now. 3 that have over 20 years on the department that keep there interior certs. up to date but choice not do go in. I am not a big fan of Exterior only or what we call scene support guys but i have learned to except it and i make sure i know who these guys are on our neighboring departments so when we get called for MA or we call them i don't get one of those guys.
-
Permalink Reply by John Crabbe on
-
Ben,
If this is what you are chhosing to view your simplistic topic, then so be it, I could really care less. I have explained how the Navy operates which is in contrast to how you have viewed things and despite your thoughts as being wrong. The Navy does not use the term FF because in the Navy Damage Control is much more diverse. DC covers firefighting, dewatering, flood control, pipe patching, shoring, chemical warfare, HAZMAT and so forth........quite a bit more than just the simplistic concepts this thread is about.
You are quite hung up on who and what is defining the aspect of FF and it was you who brought DC into the mix. Quite simply Ben, if your intentions are to solely care only about your point rather than learning further about the job you wrongly assumed about, then so be it.
The simple fact remains that in the Navy, DC are not the sole responders to emergencies like a communities FD would be. Instead it is the "community" that is trained to respond and mitigate, quite unlike the topic at hand here. In the Navy all sailors go through the training, unlike the aspect of watering down standards for fire depts as we are seeing here. In the Navy, all sailors are expected to do the job (all aspects) of DC despite if they choose to or not.....quite the contrary as this discussion touts.
-
-
So, fire departments in the situation Bob described should just let the house burn because we know it will be a few minutes until more than 6 interior firefighters arrive?
Is that what you are saying? If not, then what are you saying?
How does that situation line up with "protect property"?
Foremost, Bob already stated this was a hypothetical situation in his reply to Jack. Secondly, I asked Bob as to how he is utilizing such personnel when and if s**t hits the fan....as to which I have received no response. So are you now Bob's spokesperson then Ben?
Quite frankly Ben, I don't have to answer this question, it is not mine to answer. I merely stated that Bob, should not be hiding behind antiquated, outdated, regulations to justify his remarks. I have stated my stance several times before and that I disagree with the "exterior only" concept which you both are seeminly fond of.
I further asked Bob about his comments, to which you jumped in on and did not give Bob a chance to explain.......I asked Bob my question simply because he is talking about a mix of interior and exterior personnel.......of which our previous debate....and moreso your argument....consisted of those depts that can not commit interior personnel......yet look to still provide some sort of community service. So I would like to hear from Bob as how this is handled and to answer the questions I originally posed.
So how would I do it doesn't really matter. It doesn't matter because I know that any FF responding to a similar scene in my area is going to be fully qualified to be able to go interior. If such a situation were to happen to me, I don't have to worry about who is an interior or who is an exterior only FF, because the state dictates the minimum standards to be a FF............and golly gee, we also have some pretty poor rural areas, yet they still seem to get FFs who are qualified to the minimum standards......So I ask, why can't your states also make such requirements?
-
Permalink Reply by Don Catenacci on
-
Well Ben,
Let's do this by the numbers.
1) Absolute NONSENSE. You think that before SCBA and PBI turn outs firefighters didn't go interior? Or interior as needed to save lives and property? Well you are WRONG as wrong could be, when my Dad started as a firefighter the only choice for a mask they had was a filter mask, so most didn't wear them, but they still went inside to fight fires and rescue people. So please do try again because this line of crap doesn't fly.
Posible to save lives from the exterior with exterior streams? I suppose so, I suppose it would also be possible to not show up at all and anyone savable would save themselves because they couldn't count on you to save them.
2) You like to take everything out to the extreme of almost being ridiculously idiotic don't you? I would bet using your standards most firefighters can't tell you the Pro Board qualifications for FF1 or 2...so what does that say about them?
You knew very well what I said and what I meant and it had not one single damn thing to do with Pro Board qualifications. It had to do with PERCEPTION and the perception of most people is that when you call the fire department actual firefighters will show up to save their lives and property. Not stand outside and watch them die and their possesions be destroyed.
3) Of course you are trying to complicate things. because then it is easier to deflect from the topic at hand. It is your standard MO.
4) The area I live in is protected by volunteers, the entire county has one career FD with 7 career members, the rest is paid on call firefighters. So 12 FDs are completely POC or volunteer. So pulling that card to try and discredit e doesn't work, especially when you realize they ALL do interior firefighting and search and rescue.
Good luck with your countersuit. If that concept was in the least bit true why aren't FDs suing property owners all over the country? Nice try, but no points awarded.
5) NO, a firefighter is someone capable and willing to do what is necessary to save lives and property. With structural firefighting that means going interior.
I couldn't begin to care less what Montana does, and all it does is say Montana says so. But let's play that game, one state out of 50 has dropped standards to allow less able and capable firefighters. Seems like a boon for the volunteer service. Let's hear more whining about not being considered equals while you stand out on the lawn. (By the way, I belong to 2 POC FDs in addition to my career FD, so don't play the career hater line because you will look like an ass).
6) Most Fds can't fill their rigs? Have any data for that? Because I think it is an issue some places and not a problem at all in others.
Again, I couldn't begin to pretend to care less what your FD does, it has no effect on me. The weakening and standards reducing efforts that are being undertaken do affect the volunteer service and in my opinion will lead to its demise in areas faster than would have been necessary.
-
Permalink Reply by 1092l017pr9w9 on
-
I did not read the article but my personal thoughts on training is that every Firefighter should be trained to the same standard of basic training across all states in the us. And then have to ceu like emt do to make sure that we are all at a safe and standardized training level to better serve our communitys. We are all professionals from the 100% Volunteer deptments to the 100% paid deptments. So we all need to be train to that level of professionalism we do not only repesent our dept when on a call or in the publics eye we are a repesention of the town or county we serve and every brother and sister that is in the service with us. And may everyone in the fire service remember we all have a family at home that wants us to come home safe. And just a little food for thought the day you think you know every thing is the day that you are a hazard to not only your self but others. May every one be safe and stay safe
-
Permalink Reply by Bob Callahan on
-
So then why don't we just have paramedics?
I mean, if we want the best possible care and the highest level of response, just do away with CPR certified personnel, First Responders, EMT-Bs and EMT-I's and just train everyone to Paramedic.
Following your logic, it takes a paramedic to obtain patient info, take vitals, provide BLS care, transfer the patient to the stretcher, administer O2 and a whole host of other skills, and just because that EMT-B can't read a monitor, intubate or administer cardiac drugs they have no place or value on the EMS scene.
If they don't have the time, we just tell them that we can't use you. If they want to be involved in EMS but don't have the drive to become a paramedic or the interest to achieve that level of training, we just tell them that we don't want folks playing around on the side and find something else to keep them occupied?
Nobody here is saying that if you want to be an interior firefighter, sorry, but we'll just train you to operate exterior. What we are saying is that there are likely thousands of VFDs that use exterior firefighters on a daily basis as a critical part of their operations (and likely always will) because of the reality of thier rural communities (which will always be the case), and in the interest of professionalism, let's develop an exterior certification so that they can have their skills and knowledge tested and verified, just like we do with interior members with FFI.
There again, are thousands of VFDs that mix interior and exterior personnel everyday without burning town thousands of square miles. Are there rural VFDs that have a higher mix of exterior members compared to interior? Sure. We have a bunch of them within 100 miles of my house and i work with them everyday in my VFD. That's not because they don't want to train their personnel to operate interior. It's because they lack the members who desire to, physically can't operate interior or recognize the fact that they do not have the time to commit to that level of training. So we throw them out as not valuable and not useful on the fireground? Hell no. They can be trained to perform exterior operations that are a crucial part of the operation, and should have the opportunity to be tested and certified in what they do.
I would think that certifying non-interior members through written and hands-on testing would actually increase the level of professionalism, but maybe I'm silly that way.
As far as the same standard nationally? Hahahahahahaaaaa. The vast majority of the states do not require FFI for volunteers and some don't even require it for career personnel. Some require a shortened state-level class for volunteers. Many states require nothing.
There are even states with no requirements for career members.
As far as FFI, look around. Some states teach a 80-hour FFI class. Some teach a 240-hour FFI class. And there are a whole bunch someplace in between. The fact is there is nothing even remotely close to a standardized level of training as each state has it's own requirements and tend to develop their own FFI/FFII classes. And if I take a FFI class and pass the test in State A likely it will not be accepted in state B, C, D or E.
So in reality, what determines professional qualifications in many places is left up the the local fire department.
-
-
Ben,
Now you are confusing the discussion with facts.
Silly man.
-
Permalink Reply by Patti Walz on
-
Each department is different. CYA
© 2024 Created by Firefighter Nation WebChief.
Powered by
