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Two in Two out...who's out?
My department has an SOG on Two in - Two out, as do many. Which in Florida it's also law. Considering your department has a four person engine company and you adhere to the regulation/guideline/law...will the company officer of the first in unit (initial command) go in or stay out? This has nothing to do with a "confrimed rescue", which negates the Two out. Offensive fire attack - no rescue!
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Bob Callahan on
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The problem is that, as U understand it, the pump operator is not eligible to make entry as he has a role on the fireground that cannot be abandoned.
So unless you have a 5-person crew, you do not have a crew capable of meeting the 2 in/ 2 out requirement.
That being said, IMO, the company officer should go inside, and act as part of the 2-out with the 3rd firefighter.
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Permalink Reply by Chris Hixson on
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The first-in company officer has three options when arriving at a structure fire: Command, Fast Attack or Investigate. When the officer determines that his participation in firefighting activities would be more beneficial than a "dedicated" command position, he can go in. The 2-in/2-out rule states that of the two firefighters outside of the IDLH atmosphere, one must be in full PPE and maintain contact with the attack team in case there is a need for firefighter rescue. The other may be involved in other fireground activities (equipment operator or IC). Once other units have arrived on scene a dedicated RIT must be established.
We have four man engine/truck companies and this works well for us. The 2nd in unit takes command and his crew becomes the RIT. He joins his crew when relieved by the BC.
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Permalink Reply by John Crabbe on
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The reality is that any rescue for a downed FF is going to utilize more resources than just 2 people. The 2 in 2 out rule is really nothing more than some "feel good" regulation and sets an antiquated minimum standard of personnel which, most likely, will be significantly overwhelmed in the event of a MAYDAY.
This also means that given your scenario, I would hope there would be additional rigs paged out at the same time as you and enroute the same time too, so that resources are on scene shortly after the first in. However, also given the scenario, there is enough size up and fireground functions that a first due pump with 4 personnel can be doing. Water supply...are you going in or catching a hydrant? Size up...Officer should be doing a 360 while others are deploying gear. Hose deployment.....right size for fire...got a back-up line pulled too?.....PPV fan, are you looking to do PPA?.....Forcible entry? Is your route in locked?.....By the time you get all this out I would hope by the time you are ready to make entry there will be other crews on scene where you meet 2 in 2 out without worrying about a single company attack.
In all actuality, the only time that a single engine company, even with 4 people, should be making entry alone is if there IS a rescue priority.....otherwise, get set up and ready to make entry when the next in arrive. For us, that is what we would do. The rig officer will take command, and most likely pass it to the next due officer to make entry.
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Permalink Reply by Aric Stewart on
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Has no on ever heard of Combat Commander. This would still allow you to have 2 in and 2 out. If the company officer sees it fit to attack the fire then he/she can assume the role of Combat Commander. Is it idea no but it can work. So why isn't proper to have a Combat Commander until some other officer can show up and assume command.
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Command can be held by someone on the inside, but the issue thus becomes how much more limited your view now becomes. The conditions seen on the outside can be drastically different than the inside and it is not ideal to have command held by someone inside.
The only time I could see such a place for such a thing is if there is a rescue priority and you have to go in and can't wait for other companies. Otherwise, there really is no reason to be going into a structure until there are other rigs and personnel on scene. There is a reason that NFPA calls for 15 to 18 personnel on scene for a room and contents fire and there is no reason (other than rescue) that a single engine company should be going in until backup arrives.
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works great in the perfect world where you have several trucks getting on scene in a short amount of time. In rural setting where you have 10 to 20 mins for the next truck or officer to get on scene you do what you can with what you have. That was what i was getting at. Not knowing this guys situation.
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In rural setting where you have 10 to 20 mins for the next truck or officer to get on scene you do what you can with what you have
I understand but it still shouldn't matter. The level of service, in conjunction with personnel available also directly correlates with how much the citizens are willing to pay for the service. This means the only reason to make an attack on say a room and contents with a 4 person crew, should be for a rescue situation. So if this means that the crew is limited with doing things from the outside, like a transitional attack, then so be it. There is no reason that firefighters should be risking themselves with such a limited crew for property.....if the people truly cared, then the service level would be increased so such a situation would not present itself.
The point being here is that we have seen too many needless deaths and injuries of firefighters for the sake of property only......doing what you have to do should mean that the firefighter's safety comes first....if that means the building burns down because the next due was 10 minutes or more out, then so be it. The resident/owner should have known the resources available and the chances they took to live there, but FF's should not be going in with just a minimalistic crew.
**I know and understand there will still be services that will ignore this and other people to defend their operations and so forth, but I will not come into a public internet thread and defend such decisions.....It is easier to explain that a property was lost because the service level is low because of whatever reason (mostly financial)....than it is to explain why a FF needlessly died or permanently injured for the sake of property**
Now I know there are so many on here (not to single anyone out) that use the "We do the same job" mantra and so forth, but reality is we don't. You can not defend a dept operation where a single engine crew of even 4 shows up and be alone for awhile and think that they are going to do the same operations as a better staffed dept with secondary resources showing up closely after the first due.
In another analogy, you really don't hear of say the county sheriff deputy in podunk comparing themselves to say the NYPD and doing the "same job". Reality is that back up may be awhile to get there so you don't see or hear of examples of such a LE person operating the same way as one with backup around the corner.
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Exactly.
The fact is rural departments do not do the same job as far better staffed urban career depaertnebt, and even thier better staffed volunteer or combination surburban departments.
We generally don't get there in the time frame where we can operate interior with a toal of 4 members. The response time simply gives the fire too much time to grow and spread well beyond the capabiliities of that small a crew.
And you're right .. it would be irresponsible for anyone on these forums to expect anything else for the departments in that situation.
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Permalink Reply by 55 TRUCK on
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Indiana has no laws to dictate how we operate on the fire ground. However we do have SOG & SOPs. The SOG do go over 2 in 2 out. Being a Guidline it gives the firemen and IC more flexibilty on the fire ground.
As with any large Dept. We have multiple Co. on scene. The first due Eng. has at least two inside if not 3 depending on what the Officer is doing. When we say 2 in 2 out they don't need to be from the same co. So if you have 2 guys from an engine inside and there are 2 guys from the truck doin outside work, well there you go.
I need to point out that on a residence fire we have at least 3 Engine co. With 4 FF each, 2 Truck co with no less than 3 each most staff 4. A squad with 2 ff. a Battalion with with a Battalion aid/driver. Plus a safty and EDO. So on a residence we have at least 26 firefighters.
Usualy the first due co officer goes in. He will have working comand till the Batt arrives, wich is pretty quik.
Truth be told we don't worry to much about 2 in 2 out. There are so many of us that you can't turn with out bumping into a FF. Hell the last fire I was on we had 2 Truck co and a Squad on top of us they kept stepping on the attack line. lol.
I would ask how many Co. or FF do you get on a Job and what is the average time of arrival between Co.
Really arn't comparing apples to apples.
Note on all fires the 4th in Co. is always RIT.
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Permalink Reply by Derrill on
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My attempt was to remove all the "but's and what if's". Do we comply with NFPA 1710/20? How many units are responding? Time frame of arriving units? How many firefighters? Type of occupany? Exposures? Rescue? Water supply? You get the point. I understand and employ risk assessments, use the appropriate command mode for conditions found upon arrival. I didnt want to cloud the basic question of officer in or officer out? Also avoiding a heated discussion over Two in Two out. Thanks for the input so far.
Fla. Admn. Code 69A-62.003:
(3) "With respect to 29 C.F.R. Section 1910.134(g)(4), the two individuals located outside the immediately dangerous to life and health atmosphere may be assigned to an additional role, such as incident commander, pumper operator, engineer, or driver, so long as such individual is able to immediately perform assistance or rescue activities without jeopardizing the safety or health of any firefighter working at an incident."
Would a scenario help? 1800sf one story cbs, single family, room and content fire, flames from a window B/C corner, light/moderate smoke from the top of the front door. Confrimed all occupants are out. Four person crew, with unlimited water, lets say the next unit is 4 min. out.
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Would a scenario help? 1800sf one story cbs, single family, room and content fire, flames from a window B/C corner, light/moderate smoke from the top of the front door. Confrimed all occupants are out. Four person crew, with unlimited water, lets say the next unit is 4 min. out.
For me, nope, a scenario won't help, the answer is the same. Pull lines (attack and a back up), officer does a 360, shut off the gas, force entry if needed, and PPA may be an option here. Doing all of this with a next due 4 min out you should be waiting shortly before other crews are on scene and you go in. Make a transitional attack if you need to keep the fire at bay, but I see no reason to be going in with a minimalistic crew.
If you are trying to prompt more into a "what if" scenario to see how to make an interior attack with a 4 person crew and satisfy 2 in 2 out, I disagree. The only time I would be going in, with such a crew, is if there is a rescue priority.
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