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Window attack.
It was brought up at a discussion at training about a quick window fog stream attack prior to interior attack on a confirmed room and content fire, what is everyones thoughts on this?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by 55 TRUCK on
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Just because your no longer a officer, does not mean that whatever experince you've obtained in 26yrs. falls out of your head.
what happens if these new guys along with officer popular. Jump on a rig and use this at a house fire and wind up steam broiling a victem?
Bottom line is you have a duty not just to the new firemen and the department but to the citizens you've sworn to protect. , officer or not to insure that the new guys know the proper tactics to use. When somthing like this is said use it as a training opertunity. After all there not talking about the best way to launch a creme filed pastery at a police car. These are firefighting techniques, that if employed improperly could result in death, of victems and or firemen.
Asking us for our input is great, but in this case I would have to say, you need to say somthing right then to the new firefighers or any firefighter who is speaking out of there(BEEP).
Having bugles on your collar doesn't make you a leader nor does the absents of them dictate that you are not.
God Bless
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Permalink Reply by WestPhilly on
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Don,
What makes you think the door is closed?
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Permalink Reply by Don Catenacci on
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Because this person said it is possible to get steamed through a closed door:
If it's a simple room and content fire, get in their and push the fire, heat and gases out the window. These are the "Bread and Butter" fires. Even on a fog stream, your pushing the fire to the unburned portion of the structure. A room and contents fire should be knocked down with less than 750 gal of water. Now take into account a victim just outside the room, you just steamed them like a lobster whether the door is open or closed due to the psi from the hose line. The repercussions on the dept and you could be catastrophic.
I want to know how you steam someone OUTSIDE the room behind a closed door. The door will stop the steam and at best the steam may seep around the door stops or underneath, but hardly with enough push or steam to lobster them in the hallway.
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OOh!,OOh!, Mr. Kotter! Perhaps it was a Dutch or stable door.
The top was open the bottom closed or vise a versa.
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Holy 1980's reference! Dude you are OLD!!
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Permalink Reply by Mike Pflugh on
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You are right truck, I should have spoke up. I will take that advise and run with it. I guess in this instant I dropped the ball and should have opened my mouth. Thank you for pointing that out and I hope that I have a chance to right it.. I think I will work up a little training on Fire attack and present it at an up and coming training night.
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Permalink Reply by Ed Hartin on
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The Underwriters Laboratories study on horizontal ventilation showed that 1) water applied into the fire compartment (even from the exterior) improved conditions inside the building and 2) you can't push fire. That said, water application in this study was limited to 10 seconds duration and was applied (at different times) using a straight stream and a fog pattern.
While may consider this heresy, this tactic has a number of useful applications (but is not a silver bullet that is applicable in all cases). For example: If staffing is limited, this will slow heat release rate and buy time to generate sufficient staffing to mount an interior attack (if appropriate). With potential for wind driven conditions, application of water from the exterior on the windward side may reduce heat release sufficiently to permit an interior attack. If there will be any delay in placing a line on the interior, this approach has similar advantages as to when staffing is limited.
This tactic can be used with a straight or solid stream or it can be used with a fog pattern. The key is to limit the application to that which is necessary to darken the fire and no more. Note that this is not a replacement for an effective offensive attack, but can be a useful addition when conditions warrant.
Many firefighter hold beliefs about the effect of tactical operations that are not supported by scientific evidence. This is particularly true with regards to ventilation and fire streams. The work being done by UL and NIST is having a tremendous effect on providing a solid scientific foundation with direct application in the real world.
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Welcome Back Kotter...Gabe Kaplan as Mr Kotter. First major look at John Travolta as Vinnie Barbarino...I thought it was 80's, so I stand corrected.
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While I may agree that you can't push fire, you most certainly CAN, and will, force superheated steam into areas outside the fire area. This is detrimental to the rescue of survivable victims.
The tactical point that absolutely MUST be recognized right away is are there victims in the structure that may be salvageable. If there are, exterior application of water may doom them, regardless of the type of stream used.
I believe in scientific evidence, as a place to start and to learn from, but I also recognize that the fireground is not a laboratory with contolled fuel loads, controlled weather, controlled wind, and controlled construction materials and methods. Those variables are exactly the reason the lab will never replace completely the real world learned knowledge of the fire service.
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Permalink Reply by capcityff on
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One thing I don't get is many of you say it's only okay if there's no victims in the room. Well how do you know there's no one in there until you do a search? Then if you're in there doing a search, why do you just put the fire out from the interior? It's not rocket science.
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