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Plain English ??????
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Oldman on
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The NIMS premise is a good idea in theory, and it works great on paper in the classroom setting.
After 3 deployments just in Texas this year, I can tell you it doesn't work too well from one part of this state to another. Forget about west coast vs east coast or codes. There were about as many differences in "plain English" from one region to another, and even between State and Federal agencies. And yet everybody says they are NIMS compliant. Now, I think that it is getting better than it was just a couple of years ago, but it is my opinion is that there will continue to be conflicting terminology that is still plain English, but will still be somewhat dependent on "local lingo."
Tanker or Tender really didn't come into play here, and both terms were used interchangeably. When we needed aircraft, we called for an "air drop", and it was funny that everyone; local, state, and federal understood what we were requesting, and we got it... up to and including the DC 10.
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Permalink Reply by Mike Schlags (Captain Busy) Retd on
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So Chief,
When is the last time you had to order a tanker drop to save homes? Or ensure that your helicopter was supported with a fuel tender? ICS was invented here on the left coast because of urban wildland interface fires and the need to develop a management system to allow the incident to grow to a complex incident if called for. This includes ordering things that can't have the same name.
I bet you use the ICS system that the "west coast" developed... So much for your traditions. You and your department are copying what we, the non-informed don't get it as far as tradition folks go. Funny how many things developed on the left coast become the norm for the rest of the country.
Not sure how to respond back to your implying that left coasters don't have an understanding of what tradition is for the east coast. I remember some of the east coast traditions such as not wearing gloves or SCBA's being nonsensical. Are these the traditions you are touting?
I have seen what you call traditions being changed for the sake of change in the hazmat world that I have been very much apart of since it's inception in the early 1980's. What was once the hot, warm and cold zone is not the contamination reduction corridor and other ridiculous terms inventing by someone wanting to basically piss on the proverbial bush to mark their territory.
I've also playfully argued with my company officer counterparts on the right coast about the terminology changes necessitated by NIMS and the Firescope ICS system using my cartooning skills to make a point. Somethings just don't make sense to everyone but again, when it comes time to ordering or as you mentioned, firefighter grants, we all have to play the game.
Just for the record, one calls a gasoline tanker just that, not a gasoline tender. This one word is just one example of something a bean counter type personality invented, possibly to also be the one marking their territory... Either way, it is what it is and we should all just move on... Take a look at prior discussions about this topic. It's been beat to death already.
CBz
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Permalink Reply by Don Catenacci on
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Well Mikey,
First of all, I am not a Chief. Was at one time on my #1 POC FD, now a training officer on both of my POC FDs and a firefighter at my career job.
You get snotty pretty quick don't you? I don't recall attacking anything you left coasters do. In fact if you check your reading comprehension level I said in the midwest we seem to pick and choose the best of both worlds, and in reality add our midwestern ingenuity to make it better than either coast.
You want to get on your high horse about SCBA usage? How about all the years out there on the left coast where you guys wore short coats, duty pants and work boots to fight fire? I remember quite an eye opening video with a crew fighting an aircraft fire and being enveloped in fire with their pants on fire. Stupidity isn't owned by either coast they share it quite evenly if you ask me.
Wildland fires will continue to decimate your left coast, as well as anywhere else that people are over and over and over and over and yes, OVER AGAIN, allowed to build homes that are combustible in close proximity to wildland areas of grasslands or forested areas without adequate fire breaks. I shake my head each time we hear of the same areas being burned year after year after year, kind of like the homes that fall off the hillsides from the mudslides year after year after year. Explain that idiocy to me...if you can.
Actually the ICS systems came out of forest fire fighting and you can trace the roots of it as equally to the forest fires in the midwest, including Wisconsin as anywhere else. Wisconsin had an Incident Management System LONG before NIMS was ever thought of. So don't break your arm patting yourself on the back.
And we can agree or disagree about tanker or tender, but asking me when I last called for a "AIR tanker" drop is about as relevant to me asking you when was the last time you fought a dairy barn, combine, snowmobile, or marsh fire. The fact remains that there were tanker TRUCKS long before there were tanker AIRCRAFT and forcing the entire fire service to accept a name change like that is just stupid.
Dude, get out of the smog for a while and come to God's country where the air is clean and common sense still rules.
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Donny,
Well didn't we get off to the wrong start or what? Let's clear the air first.
• I looked at your profile and saw Chief... hence addressing you as chief.
• My getting as you put it, "snotty", was started by this particular comment on your part, and I quote, "The one thing you west coasters will NEVER understand is the TRADITION that is very strong on the east coast." It kind of makes me want to ask you if you understand our traditions? Let me know if I missed anything. I'm pretty sure that your job is not a lot different than any firefighters on the West coast.
• Like yourself, I tend to take the best from everyone, regardless of geographical locations. And some of the best and brightest minds I have met in the fire service are company officers and firefighters that are East coast folks that blow me away with their level of competence.
• This mindset also applies to LAFD once upon a time, and I was among them, fighting fires sans complete PPE. We all did stupid things back in the day. My comments were made not to lend credibility but to only exemplify traditions that I have heard of through my association of firefighters at the National Fire Academy and other national programs that I have both attended as a student or as an instructor. Again, I found it confrontational on your part to make a statement that there was not an understanding of tradition.
• More and more people equals encroachment on places that didn't use to have residences. It's a personal choice, no different than people who live in New Orleans. They know it's going to flood but they still live there. I think it's nuts to live in a highrise but hey, welcome to our free society where you can live anywhere you want. We just have to pick up the pieces and make it as safe as possible. And as a result to this impact, things like the ICS system and wildland / urban interface firefighting tactics were and continue to be invented.
• You are dead wrong about the inception of the ICS system. It was started and invented where I live, Santa Barbara, CA. I will attach the powerpoint presentation that outlines the evoluti... Needless to say, way before NIMS was even around, we were using the ICS system and slowly making it better through the FireScope task force.
"As a result, the Incident Command System (ICS) was collaboratively developed (actually in Santa Barbara County) to provide a consistent, integrated framework for the management of large, multi-agency emergencies."
• There is no salient argument as to why tankers are airplanes... When the changes were made, I too had to re-think how I classify and name things. When I wrote the California hazmat technician and specialist programs, one of the modules included tank trucks used for hauling hazardous materials. No where in the program included the use of tenders. We have no disagreement here Don.
•While I spent my career working in Santa Barbara, one of your assumptions about what we are familiar with included ag rescue and what I would call a flat lander response cadre. I have cows in my backyard for gods sake. How much more God Country can you get?
Bottom line here Don is that for the most part, I agree with everything you have written but may have not done the best of jobs communicating it. Hopefully, we can do a better job. The point of replying to these forum posts is to share information with others. I look forward to continuing to do so with you in the future. You have a strong background in the trade and certainly aren't shy about expressing your opinion. Exceptional traits for a firefighter.
Fraternally,
Mike
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Permalink Reply by Just Plain Craig Moyer on
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We started using plain english near the end of my time as an active member. Since I drove it wasn't an issue withme except once in a blue moon when I rode officer.
We had issues of units "rolling out", instead of responding. Truck and Ladder caused alot of issues. We changed from 17-7 to Ladder 17. Its still 21-7 if its a quint because it can act as an engine. Same with rescues, Rescue 23 and 306.
The whole state is plain language except one department.
Its works overall especially running out of state.
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Permalink Reply by 55 TRUCK on
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Being NIMS compliant. Means your firefighters have past the nims tests. Doesn't mean your dept. actualy uses it. Some departments use all of it, some use parts of it and some use none of it. They still get grants, cause all there firefighters are trained in it.
We have never used 10 codes around here. The cops do.
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Uh oh... with your department using "Its still 21-7 if its a quint", means that you might NOT be NIMS compliant... Now what are you going to do Craig? - LOL
As I pointed out earlier, local terminology and what folks' call their apparatus will still be heard on radio transmissions but not written on resource ordering forms when NIMS comes into play.
In the mid-west and east coast, water trucks are called tankers compared to the west coast where they are called tenders. The west coast was forced to clarify the difference between between planes and trucks because of the need to use both in conjunction when battling wildland urban interface fires. The last thing you will ever be ordering Craig, is a DC-10 Air Tanker on one of your incidents...
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Mike,
I am glad this is funny to you. The point is there was absolutely no logical reason for airplanes to be labeled tankers when fire apparatus on wheels, that haul water, had been called tankers for over a hundred years. You west coasters want credit for this entirely stupid and illogical move, fantastic, you can have it.
We use air tankers in the midwest on occasion too. We have thousands of acres of forest in Wisconsin and occasionally, far less than you guys it seems, they burn. Funny thing is we could differentiate between AIR tankers and GROUND tankers without forcing the entire nation into a name change. Oh, I did find it amusing that even YOU called the DC-10 an AIR Tanker when I thought the proper term was simply Tanker.
Just for clarification, in my area we are moving to using the term Tender for what had ALWAYS been called Tankers. More because of MABAS than NIMS because with MABAS there is specific nomenclature for types of fire apparatus. MABAS is a multiple state mutual aid program so it is important that when you call for something everyone is on the same dance card.
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Permalink Reply by Jack/dt on
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Geez Don, and I thought you were self-righteous in that *other* discussion. You remember the one where you preached to some of us that if we don't like the topic to just move on and NOT comment. And here you are having a kitten over the use of the word TANKER. Maybe you should just move on?
ROTFLMAO
And please explain why it seems to upset you so that Mike finds it funny. Is it because you DON'T and so no one else can?
Let me get serious for a minute, I suspect you're just tired from standing all the time. Try pulling that stick out...you might be able to sit down then.
As much as it pains me, I agree with you on the absurdity of tanker/tender. However, I don't blame Mike S. for it. Pretty sure it's not his fault. Even so, I'll continue to call those big ass water carriers tankers. Tender is how I like my steak.
And now...back to your scheduled pissing match...already in progress.
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Don,
When someone comes on as aggressive as you have been demonstrating, I tend to try to balance the conversation with humor, which includes graphics sometimes. I find nothing funny about your insistence that I, who in your mind represents the west coast, came up with different terminology for both apparatus and aircraft.
As far as wanting credit, I was merely pointing out that your comment that ICS was not developed in SoCal. I simply was qualifying my statement with fact and backed it up with a direct link explaining the history of ICS. Just like I preceded "tanker" with the word "air" to make it clear as to what I was saying.
Don, you are coming off as a complete bully here. My point of involvement with FFN is to share information and have fun conversations, not spar with folks. I'm not sure why you are being so aggressive here. I've tried to be nice and professional with you and would appreciate the same in return. We are not enemies, but two people who have worked different parts of the country, but basically doing pretty much the same job. Both of us had NIMS forced down our throats, fully understand ICS and use it to best fit our needs.
I ask you respectfully to tone down your aggressive and inflammatory responses. It can go both ways and will serve no one any purpose. Again, let's start over, move on and try to find ways to help others learn from our experience, and more importantly, have fun helping others learn.
So... Moving on... Key point here is that there is a big difference between our first-in areas and the level of service that we have to provide. I doubt seriously that Wisconsin has to deal with this type of response that necessitated differentiating between trucks and planes.
"We use air tankers in the midwest on occasion too. We have thousands of acres of forest in Wisconsin and occasionally, far less than you guys it seems, they burn."
We use air tankers in the west ALL THE TIME. We have thousands of acres of wildland urban interface that overwhelms all available resources, necessitating the use of air tankers and helicopters. And remember, we have to deal with Californian's... Throw out any common sense sometimes... Again, sorry you got burdened...
The only difficulty is how these terminology changes have done nothing but breed contempt by firefighters such as yourself for the folks who were forced to invent ways to deal with extended incidents involving wildland urban interface fires.
One more thing... I had to look up MABAS... this is why I never heard of it... Non-existent on the west coast...
WHAT IS MABAS ?
MABAS is a mutual aid organization that has been in existence since the late 1960s. Heavily rooted throughout northern Illinois , MABAS now includes over 750 member fire departments organized within 75 divisions. MABAS first came to Wisconsin in 1987 with the joining of the Village of Pleasant Prairie in Kenosha County . MABAS divisions geographically span the states of Illinois , Wisconsin , Indiana , Missouri , Michigan , and the other states, i.e. Minnesota , Iowa , and Ohio , are considering joining. There are 16 established Wisconsin divisions (as of May 2008) who share MABAS with the 62 divisions established in Illinois .MABAS includes over 25,000+ firefighters and daily staffed emergency response units including more than 950 fire stations, 1100+ engine companies, 375+ ladder trucks, 800+ ambulances (mostly paramedic capable), 150+ heavy rescue squads, 135+ light rescue squads, and 275+ water tankers. Fire/ EMS reserve (back-up) units account for more than 600 additional emergency vehicles. MABAS also offers specialized operations teams for hazardous materials (HAZMAT), underwater rescue/recovery (DIVE) and above grade/below grade, trench and building collapse rescues, a.k.a. Technical Rescue Teams ( TRT ). An additional element of resource are the certified fire investigators which can be "packaged" as teams for larger incidents requiring complicated and time-consuming efforts for any single agency.
- Mike Schlags, Fire Captain/Paramedic (Retd.)
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Move on? Nah I don't think so.
Having a kitten? Nope, just pointing out the absolute ludicrousness of having to change the term tanker to tender because according to Mike SoCal FDs couldn't seem to differentiate between airplanes and trucks.
We are converting to using the term Tender for tankers. I know full well some will NEVER change to saying Tender. Cause in my mind tender should always be preceeded by chicken, as in Chicken Tenders.
No pissing match here. Just strongly differing opinions.
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Mike,
You see me as aggressive and a bully, I see you as smug and arrogant. Perception is everything isn't it?
I get the feeling that you have never had a situation where someone has questioned you and your opinions. I am used to open ended discussions where people challenge each others thoughts, ideas and opinions. Funny thing is that seems to be where the best ideas come from.
I want to ask you a serious question. WHY when year after year after year you have thousands of acres burn and houses burn does California allow people to rebuild in EXACTLY the same way in EXACTLY the same locations? How about requiring truly fire resistive roofing materials? How about requiring fire breaks a round homes? How about requiring built in fire protection? How about anything besides the same disasters year after year?
MABAS has a 50 years history of uniting fire departments across state borders, without government control, to mutually support each other. It gets bigger every year and is nearing the middle of Wisconsin right now. My career FD has been a MABAS member for about 5 years now and my POC FDs are in the process of joining now.
Funny thing is you want to drop the animosity yet you continue down the same path. I would bet I have at least as many years in the fire service as you do so drop the condescending nature of your posts and mayb things can turn around. If not maybe you should just ignore my posts.
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