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Pistol Grip Nozzles
Nozzle & Back-up Techniques Video
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Pierre-Louis Lamballais on
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Sorry but you are doing the same mistake that the guys on the video. You don't learn to do one thing so when you try, you see it doesnt' work, so you think the method is not good. You just learn to drive a car, falln down from a motorcycle and argue the motorcycle is dangerous.
First, even if the video show demonstration "outside", these techniques are use for years and we have instruct many FF all around the years to use them.
The main problem is not the pattern. The main "tips and tricks" is opening time. If you just calculate the amount of stream produced by water, you will see that you need only a very very small amount of water to cool the hot gazes (previouily to ignition, or during ignition). The volume of water needed is so "small" that you must set the nozzle to 40GPM and open it and close it in less than 1/2 second. But notice one point:this is OK with a pretty nice fog pattern, producing evaporation of about 90 to 95% of the water, due to small dropplet. If you don't learn how to do, you will open the nozzle a too long time and get burn. So, the best way in that case would be to use solide bore. Why? Because with solid bore, the contact surface between heat and water os very bad so only 20% of water can evaporate.
Just see on the video, the time of opening and look the "fog" which is produced.
I must agree thatj, from an "external" point of view, it's seem to be "stupid" to tell that only a such amount of water will be able to "push back" a see of flame rushing to you. But it works and it works fine.
Also, in a mobile home, the constrution is very light. Using solide bore will strike the wall and increase collapsing risk. Not this method.
best regards
Pierre-Louis
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The main question is to know if, before, you were using pistol grop only because "we use pistol grip because we use pistol grip", so without any parameter.
In that case, the first who give you ONE reason to stop using pistol grip, will win the challenge. So I suggest also to you, to get a course with a good instructor, telling WHY pistol grip is better.
People can be from the FDNY or from all fire service, this will change nothing. I remener of a course I gave a few years ago at the Paris Fire Brigade, which, like the FDNY, is not a "comic troop". We were talking about colour of smoke and in fact, during years they were learning some "tips and tricks" based on a wrong supposition. It was very funny.
In a recent post on this web site, i've seen a message from an instructor of the FDNY saying "thermal balance" was a kind of myth...
Alos, if the gut from this course, tell you why, just tell us why, and we will see if the reason are good or not.
Learn to fight and don't trust everybody. The fire service is a marvellous place for non-sense.
Regards
Pierre-Louis
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Permalink Reply by Timothy D. Stone Jr on
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We use the Comb type. I can turn ours to a large fog, or small fog, or stright. We also carry smooth bore and fog nozzels. But we mostly use the Comb.
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I watched it and anything you can do with normal nozzel, you can do with a pistol grip. Its just all in how you were trained. I hold my nozzel out like they show in the video. We pump at around 80 to 100 psi I have no problems with moving side to side forward or backwards. If im doing a trainin where we have to crawl I love the grip, helps me move.
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Permalink Reply by Don Catenacci on
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Pierre-Louis,
You can believe as you wish, and frankly I couldn't care less, but if we hadn't kept the nozzle flowing we never would have made that hallway to get to the main body of the fire. I am not talking about a heated smoke filled overhead, or small licks of flame, I am talking about full blown fire halfway or more down the wall coming down the hallway.
I said pulsing, under the right circumstances, is a viable tactic. Heated smoke and gasses in the overhead, and limited fire, may be an opportunity to pulse. As for turning the nozzle down to 40 gpm? Not a chance. I want the ability to flow a lot of water when the shit hits the fan, not have to dial a gallonage adjustment AND call for the pump operator to flow more water.
Funny how you choose to be insulting in your manner of promoting your technique and I remained fact based using personal experience. I did not totally dismiss your tactic, just stated it is not appropriate in all circumstances. I have used pulsing successfully to cool the overhead. Have you ever used the up down all around method using a smoothbore nozzle?
As for a smoothbore nozzle causing a collapse in a mobile home...You are kidding right? Because if you are serious all I can do is shake my head in disbelief.
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The pistol grip is neither good nor evil. It is an inanimate object that can only do what the user makes it do.
Is it the best choice ALWAYS to use the pistol grip? Probably not. Is it the best choice NEVER to use the pistol grip? Probably not.
The truth is the Fire Department supplies what type of nozzle you will use and YOU have to become proficient in its use.
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Hi Don,
First I'll never tried to be "insulting" and maybe my "english level" can produce some misundesttanding, so sorry for that.
Concerning the fact you flow a lot of water, it depend on what you are talking about. If it's to attack so to put water on the seat of fire, you are right as, all around the world everybody fight the fire the same way.
For coming from the entrance to the seat of fire, I think we are not talking of the same fire. When you say "no ventilation", I think you are tallking of "no use of fan". When I talk of "no ventilation" I talk of a fire with a very small opening so a heat from top to floor. In case of well ventilated fire, you can flow a lot. But this will change nothing: from the entrance to the seat, your flow rate change nothing as you are flowing against gas. With a pulse of 1/3 of a seconde at 40GPM, we "extinguish" a ceiling of flame of about 15 feets long, 6 feets wide and 1 feet height. If you use more water? You will dot the same. Like with a candle: if you blow and extinguish it, you can blow "more", you will not "extinguish it more"...
But if you were able to flow a lot of water, this seem to demonstrate you were facing a well ventilated fire, so with opening. Because in a real under ventilated fire, you will have suffer burns due to the steam. With a 40GPM nozzle, correctly use, you can face a fire than will melt you SCBA face piece. I've had 3 faces part of SCBA melt, and each time we were able to advance using a 40GPM fog pattern.
But this is an "no end" debat. Even in France, were FF are "in love" with fog, our students have to face real and fiercy fire to admit it work. Im' not a young FF. During 10 years my "instructors" tell me to flow a lot of water. I just discover some better method exist, giving a better result, with less water, less destruction, and better security. I've instructing flashover instruction from Spain, portugal, Poland, Belgium, Swiztserland, Brasil. I'll go in the next month to instruct other in Italy, Peru and Chili. I'm sure, I will face the same questions as in other place: how can it work with so little amount of water...
One student, at the end of a course in Belgium, tell me "No need to be clever to understand that, for years, we were on the wrong way". I was also on the wrong way. Maybe the actual one is not ""'the best", but it's far more better than the old one :)
Send me in private message, your email adress. We will certainly organise free course in Brasil next years and it would be nice to invite you. Only real fire demonstration is the key.
Best regards
Pierre-Louis
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That's true. On the other side, many departement buy tools according to nthe price rather than to the real need.
Concerning the fact some time pistol grip is better and sometimes not, I agree. Look again the video, when we flow water on the wall to create a protection zone, we don't use the pistol grid. But each time, you must explain why. In the old time, the instructor told student "this is the way" and it was the way because the instructor told it was... We know this teaching method is not good. If you want to get the best "recording" of info, you have to explain why.
During my instructor course, I tell my student that this is like the hammer and the screwdriver. You can teach how to use them, by, most important, you must teach why to use them. If you just teach how, one day you will have students trying to use the hammer to screw. And in that case, the conclusion would be hammer is a bad tool. There is NO bad tools. There is tools badly use or, (more viscious) good tool, well used, but not used for the right purpose.
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Actually, no ventilation means NO ventilation, no openings, definitely no fan.
I am not talking about 1 foot of flame at the ceiling I am talking about 4 or 5 feet of flame DOWN from the ceiling. We needed to flow and keep flowing to advance. There was no other way to move down the hallway. Pulsing would not have worked in this situation.
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I've been also in situation with flames down to the floor, about 5 second before flashover with a blackfire occuring, and with some pulse it was enought. I'll invite you an other US FF in our school and you will demonstrate.
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Permalink Reply by Nathan Henderson on
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I have used nozzles with and without a pistol grip on them and am impartial either way.
The way I was trained to hold and use the nozzle during supression is different than in the video and what some of the other comments here suggest. I was always taught to have a hand on the nozzle or bale in case you need to close the line down quickly and to keep control over the nozzle.
From the way I was taught to hold the line during ops a pistol grip nozzle can be nice at times to have a good handle when advancing the line and to use when the line is open. As I said before, I have experience with nozzles that have pistol grips and ones without them and don't mind using either one.
Another thing I have noticed with pistol grips is that the way we load our hose it helps hold it in on the shoulder a bit when deployed.
As far as the backup firefighters placement, with a 1 3/4" line i like them close enough to help support the line (2-3' behind me) or if it's not too far away, at the closest ben where they can feed or take the slack as needed. This just depends on the situation and I can communicate with them if I want them to move closer or back up.
If it's a 2 1/2" line then I like them closer to take some of the weight and help swing the nozzle if needed. Again it can change with the situation.
Hope this helps, Stay Safe.
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Permalink Reply by frans on
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i like model of pistol grip nozzle. new model, and very simple, we can move the nozzle very easy. in my station don't have it. we just have old model nozzle/long size.
i hear my friends in mine coal office, buy pistol grip nozzle for Rp XX.000.000,- WOW very expensive for we.
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