The Social Network & Community JUST for Firefighters
But The 2-1/2 Is Soooooo Hard to Move...
The average complaint about the big line is that it takes a lot to advance it.
The 2 1/2-inch hoseline is plagued by myths that cause our reluctance to use it, even at times when it is needed most. The most common are that it is too heavy to advance aggressively and that it requires more manpower than that used to advance a 1 3/4- or 1 1/2-inch handline.
It is correct that the big line will not be as quickly stretched and advanced as its smaller brothers, but if you stop for a moment and consider the type of fires and settings that the 2 1/2-inch hoseline faces, then you can begin to understand that speed is not so much a requirement. Take a look at the mnemonic you should be using for deciding when to pull the big line:
ADULTS
A = Advanced Fire
D = Defensive Operations
U = Unknown Location (of the fire; smoke pushing from every crack but we can't locate the seat)
L = Large Structures
T = Tons of Water
S - Standpipe System
Looking at these we don't see any that really require the immediate speed in stretch and advance that the smaller lines do. We are going to be quick as we can when pulling the 2 1/2-inch hoseline, but our mindset should be different. When you respond to a private dwelling fire, your hippocampus (part of the brain that deals with short- and long-term memory) is already engaged in recalling past experiences to match with the yet unseen, as you arrive. Experience combined with education teaches you that successful extinguishment of the fire will be the result of a fast stretch and knockdown. Once the parking brake is set you act almost without thinking.
But look where and how ADULTS is used.
When you respond to the Home Depot for a working fire, or the whatever-teenth floor of a high-rise, your immediate thoughts shouldn't be the quick stretch but whether or not you are bringing the right gun to the fight. It may be a fire in a rear storage room, or a kitchen fire on the 27th floor; either one, you are not going to be as quick as if you are running the 150' preconnect. You will be walking stairs, looking for the straightest path, extending a line or still looking for the fire. Combine this with the fact that the fire is growing and you should see the need for the 2 1/2.
"But I don't have the initial staffing to run the 2 1/2."
I disagree. I've been on fires where three-men engine companies have run the big line successfully and managed to make a good knockdown as other companies arrived. The reason for their success is that they trained on the 2 1/2-inch hoseline with their 'real world' staffing. It's easy for a department to say they drill on using the big line, but that is usually a whole department drill where they put six members on the line. Real world training uses real world staffing. Education should be open to all, but to stress the fact that minimum staffing can run the big line, the drill must be done with same minimum staffing.
The Nozzle Forward has two good videos showing the proper teamwork and movement among the lineman and backup man, using the 2 1/2-inch hoseline. Take a look at them, share them with others in your department and drill on stretching and advancing the 2 1/2 with real world staffing. Rotate members, three or four at a time, in simple evolutions and then repeat to gain speed in movements.
ADULTS anyone?
Hotel under construction. (Brian Slattery photo)
Commercial row with apartments above (David Coleman photo)
Private dwelling. (author's collection)
Photos courtesy of author and FITHP.net with permission.
Bill Carey is the Online News/Blog Manager for Elsevier Public Safety and a former Prince George's County (MD) volunteer fire officer.
Read more of Backstep Firefighter and others at FireEMSBlogs.com.
The 2 1/2-inch hoseline is plagued by myths that cause our reluctance to use it, even at times when it is needed most. The most common are that it is too heavy to advance aggressively and that it requires more manpower than that used to advance a 1 3/4- or 1 1/2-inch handline.
It is correct that the big line will not be as quickly stretched and advanced as its smaller brothers, but if you stop for a moment and consider the type of fires and settings that the 2 1/2-inch hoseline faces, then you can begin to understand that speed is not so much a requirement. Take a look at the mnemonic you should be using for deciding when to pull the big line:
ADULTS
A = Advanced Fire
D = Defensive Operations
U = Unknown Location (of the fire; smoke pushing from every crack but we can't locate the seat)
L = Large Structures
T = Tons of Water
S - Standpipe System
Looking at these we don't see any that really require the immediate speed in stretch and advance that the smaller lines do. We are going to be quick as we can when pulling the 2 1/2-inch hoseline, but our mindset should be different. When you respond to a private dwelling fire, your hippocampus (part of the brain that deals with short- and long-term memory) is already engaged in recalling past experiences to match with the yet unseen, as you arrive. Experience combined with education teaches you that successful extinguishment of the fire will be the result of a fast stretch and knockdown. Once the parking brake is set you act almost without thinking.
But look where and how ADULTS is used.
When you respond to the Home Depot for a working fire, or the whatever-teenth floor of a high-rise, your immediate thoughts shouldn't be the quick stretch but whether or not you are bringing the right gun to the fight. It may be a fire in a rear storage room, or a kitchen fire on the 27th floor; either one, you are not going to be as quick as if you are running the 150' preconnect. You will be walking stairs, looking for the straightest path, extending a line or still looking for the fire. Combine this with the fact that the fire is growing and you should see the need for the 2 1/2.
"But I don't have the initial staffing to run the 2 1/2."
I disagree. I've been on fires where three-men engine companies have run the big line successfully and managed to make a good knockdown as other companies arrived. The reason for their success is that they trained on the 2 1/2-inch hoseline with their 'real world' staffing. It's easy for a department to say they drill on using the big line, but that is usually a whole department drill where they put six members on the line. Real world training uses real world staffing. Education should be open to all, but to stress the fact that minimum staffing can run the big line, the drill must be done with same minimum staffing.
The Nozzle Forward has two good videos showing the proper teamwork and movement among the lineman and backup man, using the 2 1/2-inch hoseline. Take a look at them, share them with others in your department and drill on stretching and advancing the 2 1/2 with real world staffing. Rotate members, three or four at a time, in simple evolutions and then repeat to gain speed in movements.
ADULTS anyone?
Hotel under construction. (Brian Slattery photo)
Commercial row with apartments above (David Coleman photo)
Private dwelling. (author's collection)
Photos courtesy of author and FITHP.net with permission.
Bill Carey is the Online News/Blog Manager for Elsevier Public Safety and a former Prince George's County (MD) volunteer fire officer.
Read more of Backstep Firefighter and others at FireEMSBlogs.com.
Replies to This Discussion
-
Permalink Reply by Brad Dietlin on
-
Another option that is out there is a 2" line. It flows the same amount of water as the 2 1/2" but has the manuverability as the smaller hand lines. We have 250' of 2" as a blitz line preconnect with a smooth bore nozzle.
-
Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on
-
This is a good article and the videos are good ones.
However, the last three pictures don't necessarily all say "2-1/2" to me.
The Hotel under construction looks as if it's mostly extinguished - it looks as if it's showing lots of steam from multiple openings. If it was heavily involved prior to this, with the structure so open, this might be more of a master stream fire than a 2-1/2 fire.
The apartments over commercial looks appears to be a pending flashover situation - might also be a good choice for a deck pipe.
The last one is fully involved and is clearly a defensive fire at this point. That also says "deck pipe" to me.
-
Permalink Reply by Marc Hansen on
-
The push drill looks like something I cant wait to try in training....and I hate the 2 1/2! As for using a deck pipe on the last two photos, the only problem is that then you are stationary. After the taxpayer flashes you still have big fire to put out with exposures and to be able to rapidly redeploy resources as needed seems to be better then stop, reset, go again.
-
Permalink Reply by FETC on
-
The average complaint about the big line is that it takes a lot to advance it.
I am not a salesman nor have I used this nozzle yet but wondered what people thought about these. First Strike Technologies - Vindicator Heavy Attack Nozzle.
Capable of 250 GPM at 50 psi nozzle pressure using 1¾" attack hose and 425 GPM at 100 psi. nozzle pressure through 2½" hose.
-
Permalink Reply by Pararescue on
-
Call the company and request a demo. Might be hard to control with 3 feet of hose in front of you though. Or check youtube.
-
Permalink Reply by Moose on
-
I usually do a combination of the two; blitz with a deck pipe for 30 seconds to knock it down a little until the crew stretches the 2 1/2" and advances. The big gun can than go after the fire and look for hidden fire by using its penetration ability.
I like the concept too of having a break-apart nozzle on the 2 1/2" that allows you to attach 1 3/4" hose to the nozzle making it easier to overhaul once you have control of the main body of fire. Use the big gun to darken it down, close the bale, attach the smaller line, open the bale and use the small line to advance farther for mop-up.
-
-
Jason,
I am confused by your comment. 3' feet of hose in front of me? These are low pressure nozzles. 50 psi at the tip. Therefore what factual point do you have that it "might be hard to control"
I was asking to see if anyone has used them, I know I can see a video on their website or youtube.
-
Permalink Reply by Jeff Cole on
-
As Ben said, sometimes the use of a preconnected, or apparatus mounted master stream is a better choice that a hand line. The problem with the 2.5" handline IS a ack of training and use. A few decades ago that was THE line for almost eveything, at least where I grew up. The use of the 1.75" line has become almost exclusive, with little regard to the actual amount or location of fire. It seems that somehow "easy" has trumped logic. It is a good bet many departments don't even know what they are really flowing through their lines anyways.
What are you pumping to that 1.75"? The standard answer for 150' to 200' is either 150psi, or "what-ever the preset is set at". I have seen presets to 125psi on 200' 1.75" hoselines with an adjutible nozzle on the end. That nozzle may have the imprint "200 gpm @ 100psi" and so that's what the flow is thought to be. Yet friction loss is dependant upon the flow. Many departments are really flowing even less than the 1.5" did, even though it was replaced with 1.75" for the theory of more water.
And so we see the smaller lines flowing somewhere's around 130 gpm to maybe 150, possibly even less than 130...less than 100gpm even! And it is being used on heavy fire situations.
We know the friction loss of 2.5" with smooth bore nozzles are simple to calculate. But proper calculations depend on real flow tests using the right equipment. The brand and model of hose makes a difference as well. Unless you have tested each apparatus, and each discharge with a calibrated flow meter using the hose and nozzle you use...you really cannot be sure of anything.
The 2.5" hoseline can be advanced with 2 firefighters. Add one more at the doorway when you are making an entry. Although there is always argument, one 2.5' line is better than two 1.75' lines when addressing heavy fire.
I have recently purchased 2" hose and find it makes perfect sense when used for the proper applications. It doesn't replace the 2.5" hose, or the 1.75' hose entirely.
And yes, I even purchased one of them there Vindicator Nozzles, the Blitz Attack model, and will be buying more of them.
-
-
On a second look at the videos, I noticed something they have in common. The line is being moved in a straight line without any obstacles visible behind the nozzle team.
That's great in a parking lot or a straight-shot hallway on the ground floor.
Put this in a small house, a cut-up apartment building, or up the interior stairs in a multi-story apartment buildling and two firefighters - or even three like the parking lot video - are going to have a tough time handling the line if there's enough pressure at the nozzle to have decent stream reach.
Taking the line in (or up) dry will help, which brings increased risks.
If you only have three per engine, a two-firefighter nozzle team is all you get.
That brings up another dilemma - if you have two engines, do you use all four of the interior firefighters to stretch and move a single 2-1/2 line, or do you have them stretch two 1-3/4's?
Depending on the situation, I might go with the two smaller lines for speed and maneuverability - and the extra 50 GPM we get from two 150-GPM 1-3/4 lines compared to the 250 GPM we get from a single 2-1/2.
-
-
That is a solid point Ben and size-up needs to occur with capabilities of the crew. (all personnel, shifts, or department's are different)
In my world your selection of (2) 1-3/4" lines triple folded equates to a very rapid 360 gpm verse 250. When the cavalary arrives I could back it up with a 2-1/2.
I am not against stretching a big line inside, but on any given day it may or may not be in play.
-
-
Would stretch 2 1.5" lines instead of a 2.5"? Here's what seems to be lost, the misconception of the inch and three quarters line. The 1.75" began to replace the 1.5" line (150gpm vs. the 2.5" 250gpm) back after the "war years" when we began to see the first reduction in fire volume, and the subsequent reduction in staffing, or sometimes the redistribution of staffing. Basically that was the beginning of the whole "do more with less" concept when many fire departments began to replace the old, sometimes barely-trained first-aid squads and so-called rescue squads. Of course there were fire departments that has always provided EMS, but in many ways this began the larger scope.
The 1.75" began to replace the 1.5' hose for larger flows. That's pretty much when adjustible nozzles (fog nozzles) began to really dominate. Yes I know not everyone will agree...but indulge me here please. So like all the new concepts in the fire service, it began to take on a magical presence. Yet few seemed to understand that these nozzles required 100psi at the tip for OPTIMAL flow, and friction loss is based on flow and distance. The concept was a greater flow than 150gpm, more like 180gpm. Yet what was missing was proper pump pressures. The result was a hoseline that didn't really give you much of an advantage, and few departments bothered to flow test their apparatus, their hose, and their nozzles. If the salesman and the company said it will flow 200gpm, then even a PDP of 125psi with 200' of hose was, in many peoples minds going to flow that 200gpm. But it wasn't. It didn't.
Remember the 1.5" line? Some departments still use it. Meant for a room or two, maybe three. Easy to advance. Now, most of us have grasped the concept of "hotter fires" given the modern materials, the rate of fire spread, heat release...blah, blah, blah. Now we have come to rely on the 1.75" hose for everything from exterior attack and exposure protection for fully-involved structures, to interior attack in light-weight condos and townhouses with heavy fire. And yet few people seem to see anything wrong with this.
It may be a difficult concept to grasp, but two side-by-side 1.75" hoselines can be less effective than one 2.5". However the key to effectiveness is the ability to advance, and most importantly, that each hose line is pumped properly.
My target flow for a 1.75' hoseline is 185 gpm, nothing less, otherwise, what's the point? (granted that one room and contents may not require the full Montey)
I had participated in some FDIC classes myself on engine company evolutions. And the training center building used for the evolution was in fact (of course) a concrete bulding made up a few rooms, yet no furnishings, carpet, etc. Suffice it to say that yes, it WAS not realistic, and basically easier to move than a "real" structure. However, depending upon various factors, it is possible, and is accomplished often, that a 2.5" hand-line can be operated from the doorway of an apartment or structure, bounced and circulated, knocking down fire within the reach, using the superior flow, and then advancing in a few shuffles at a time, and actually extinguishing fire instead of...fighting it?
Yes it staffing is a major consideration. For some of us the option of putting two engine or ANY companies together can result in another critical task being delayed. From everything I have seen it comes down to the absolute failure to train new firefighters, and refresh, and continually train experienced firefighters in the use of the 2.5' hoseline. In many areas it is never a consideration. I know of one local department that didn't have ANY 2.5' hose for handline use...ONLY 1.75"!
As stated before, I have found 2" hose to be an extremely viable compromise between mobility and flow.
-
-
Would you stretch 2 1.5" lines instead of a 2.5"? Here's what seems to be lost, the misconception of the inch and three quarters line. ???? Sorry nothing lost here. />
Jeff if I had four guys for an attack and we needed big water, I could get two lines into operation flowing 360 GPM verse your one line at 250. not saying either way is right or wrong, JUST stating the facts. You seem to also miss my point that delay in getting a 2.5" line into operation may be because of lack of strength, ability to move, ability to handle, ability to stretch (some do not have pre-connect blitz lines) All those delay factors increase fire growth, spread and rate of heat release that expedite flashovers
You see, as you pretty much insulted us about the 1.5... well they make new nozzles that do not require 100 psi at the tip. I flow "fixed gallonage" 180 GPM combination nozzles with only 75psi at the tip. We flow tested our 200' lines when we purchased these tips (used an in-line gauge) at the nozzle, and determined those 180 GPM nozzles need to be pumped at 143 PDP for our hose configuration and yes we are only muscling 75 psi. Fixed gallonage, is fixed PDP for specific line length. Therefore as any good pump operator must know his or her friction loss and proper pump pressures, these preconnects with fixed gallonage nozzles are basically set it and forget it. The NF is so low you do not have the same "turn down the pressure" mentality as you did with the 1.5" line "like when you were pumping that 200 or 250' inch/half at almost test pressures" to get the optimum 150 gpm.
Hey lets talk about not opening the bale all the way too.
© 2024 Created by Firefighter Nation WebChief.
Powered by
