The Social Network & Community JUST for Firefighters
VES training session advice
Hey guys, a few months ago I performed a VES on a house in the city with supposedly someone inside but we learned later that they had gotten out earlier, but all that aside I wanted to do a training session for my volunteer department to go over the VES topic and do a scenario in our burn building.
We have about 15 or so certified guys and I think about 20 non-certified support personnel. We have a one story burn building, and I was thinking of setting a small stepladder in one of the windows of the building, and also place a door on the inside that shuts off the fire (there will be no fire, just smoke) from the room your searching. Also thinking about placing a couple of small items such as a cot or a chair and a few other things in there to simulate a bed and other items.
I would have the VES team come in and simulate taking out a window and one FF would then enter the room and if they can see it close the door, if not start a search until they find it then close it. The FF would continue the search until they have found or not found the victim (I might mix it up and put a doll in the room in an unlikely place or maybe not at all for some teams, depends, if I think the team will do a thorough search, I might keep the doll out and see what they do, or if I think they won't do a decent search I might put the doll in a different place and see if they find it). Before hand I will go over the different tools that can aid in searches and with VES, and then later when they get up to the burn building they can choose what tools they would like to take.
This is mostly for the certified guys and they will be the busiest but I can't leave out the non-certified people. I was thinking about having them set up a rehab station and changing out bottles each time a team came out, but that would leave alot of bottles half empty (only certified FF's are allowed to refill bottles and most of them will be participating, so noone will be able to fill bottles most likely).
Anyway guys, tell me what you think, I'm still just trying to work it out and get it written up for the Chief. Any advice and tips would be much appreciated.
Replies to This Discussion
-
Permalink Reply by FETC on
-
VES is a tactic that is very effective if you obtain good information that someone might be trapped upstairs. The tactic is not for everyone though. Searching the room above the fire, without the use of a protected hoseline is dangerous. Situational awareness needs to be on the forefront.
With the question poised by your post though, I have a question for you. I quickly went to your profile, and see with just one year in the fire service, who taught you how to VES? Was the VES you did at the last fire ordered by Command or was the technique deployed on your own?
-
Permalink Reply by John Crabbe on
-
I echo FETC's sentiment here as well, VES is a tactic and training should be conducted by someone who is trained and well versed in the technique. I'm not saying you aren't able to do the training, but your years in leads to some questions. It is that there are some very key points with VES and if it should be done, there is quite the pucker factor, proper training is important.
There are also other techniques that are incorporated like ladder raises, setting angle and so forth. This is stuff which can easily and should routinely be practiced on. It is important to know proper placement, proper size of ladder, where to place, etc. The ladder itself can be used to break glass and the tip should be placed under the window....something of which would be difficult to practice on on a one story burn building.
Going through the motions can help get familiar with the technique and to provide some basic understanding, but again such a tactic should be taught by someone very familiar with the tactic. This is also a training that would be ideal if there is an acquired structure to practice on, vs a burn building. Breaking windows and taking out the sash etc is an important aspect of VES and something which really can't be easily simulated.
What you are proposing sounds like a good way to put the gist of VES out there, like closing the door, doing a quick search, and get back out, and may help to understand the principles of VES and for a drill to be expanded upon later with a certified trainer.
This is mostly for the certified guys and they will be the busiest but I can't leave out the non-certified people. I was thinking about having them set up a rehab station and changing out bottles each time a team came out, but that would leave alot of bottles half empty (only certified FF's are allowed to refill bottles and most of them will be participating, so noone will be able to fill bottles most likely).
Doing a rehab station and changing bottles is fine. However, why couldn't certified FF's refill bottles? Sounds as though you will have plenty there to do so. Besides if on air, there is no reason that everyone has to use a fresh bottle, reuse the bottles, especially if you are not going to be having a fire. VES is a quick technique and one shouldn't even get barely through a bottle to do such a technique.
Besides, if worried about the non-certified personnel getting a chance to change bottles, have them switch out already full ones. No reason to go through a bunch of bottles for a relatively quick training.
-
Permalink Reply by Bradley Webb on
-
You both are very correct.
When I did the search I was with a more experienced FF who was at the ladder, I did the search because I was smaller and could fit through the window more easily and quicker. It was authorized by command upon arrival. You are correct that I am not an instructor on VES. Exactly as John said I am trying to get the gist of it down. All of the FF's in the department know what VES is but none of them, except one other, has ever even practiced it. With a growing population in our district, I am worried that when we actually need to use this tactic, noone will have ever practiced it before. I was a little frightened when I actually did it, and I had practiced it before.
I'm also trying to do two more things. For a while we actually had certified FF only drills to practice techniques and tactics but that has since fallen by the wayside. For the past year I'd say it has been only about the new volunteers trying to get them situated to the apparatus. I'm trying to get some time back for us who have been standing on the sidelines teaching the support personnel. It has changed so much toward the support people that many certified guys have just stopped coming altogether.
Again I am not an instructor on this. I'm not even a good public speaker. I'm trying to make this more a group roundtable so everyone can add up tips and advice or something they have seen someone do that made a difference. And for everyone to say "hey you could have done this and it would have helped out a little more."
I would love to have an acquired structure to train on but those don't come around to often here. The last one they actually tried to do a search with the hose team (I was not there). They actually, while doing this, let the fire get away from them and every other department thought they were idiots (BTW the department I'm trying to do this with is considered the new kids on the block and the outsiders, overall on average we have about 5-7 years of experience total, so they catch all the hate. We also have the largest houses, mini-mansions, as well as the oldest average population, so it's just a matter of time before we catch a good job that we have to VES on).
I would love (and I mean it I would be happier than a kid in a candy store) to have a training group come down and train, but it just hasn't happened, and I don't know that it ever will. Maybe by doing this training then the higher ups will look into it. I know one of the Assistant Chiefs has been looking at it, but I don't think he's fully convinced yet.
I'm also trying to change up our training towards Truck Co. Ops. As long as I've been there it has been about Engines and water, Engines and water, and more Engines. Don't get me wrong I love being on an Engine and carrying the line, but you can only train on it so long before that's all you know and everything else falls apart. In our department, there is only two of us who go out of our way to learn new tricks and things that can help the department. I plan on going to FDIC this year and I'm going to pay for it out of my own pocket, mainly because I know the Chief will say the money can go towards better things, but I want to learn from the best which is why I'm going, and also when I get back can help the guys with new tips and tricks. The other guy feels the same way I do, the department has moved from being an actual great FD to just a laughing stock.
The three things I'm trying to do 1. Get more certified people back to training, 2. Move the focus from Engine to Truck Ops (maybe after this we can do another session on ladders alone, covers your point about ladders, John). 3. Get the gist of VES down just in case (god forbid) we need it anytime soon. 4. Get all of the personnel to start thinking of things that they can do to better themselves and the department as a whole, not only can the Chief and Lt.'s come up with training ideas but everyone can.
I appreciate the comments guys and John your comment about the bottles is spot on, I had not thought about that and I don't see why it wouldn't work. With how many teams we would have at least one team could be filling bottles and without putting in fresh bottles we wouldn't have to go through as many overall. Thanks guys.
-
Permalink Reply by capcityff on
-
I agree with most of this except for a few points. I don't think you need a certain amount of time on to perform VES. Day one on the truck I was expected to perform everything a 20 year veteran performed. If it needed to be done, I was expected to do it and do it right.
I also don't think it's that big of a deal that command needs to order it. It's a quick operation that takes a minute. You should be able to throw the ladder alone, climb up, vent the window, search, and get out in just a minute or two.
I do agree that you should have plenty of training in it though. We are expected to do it day one, but we also have a longer academy than pretty much everyone. I think it comes out to about 1600 hours or so of training. It's 6-8 months now, 5 days/week, 8 hours/day.
To Bradley Webb, why use a step ladder for this? Do you guys usually use these on the fire ground? If so then go ahead and train with what you use, but a straight or extension ladder would be more appropriate. Quicker to deploy and make entry. It also saves you time if you want to vent the window with the ladder itself. Just an idea.
-
-
The reason for the step ladder is because we only have a one story burn building and a normal ladder won't work. No we don't use them but the window is rather high on the building itself. Or we could not use it and make the guys work out a way to get in there on there own. That may be a better option, because it will make the guys think a little more.
-
Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on
-
A 14-foot roof ladder works just fine for VES on a first-floor window. You just have to place it at a shallow angle. Practice with what you have on the engine.
© 2024 Created by Firefighter Nation WebChief.
Powered by
