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Electing Officer Positions in the Fire Service. Is this a good idea?
Do you feel having elections for officer positions within the fire service is an effective means to fill these positions? How do you ensure that the positions are filled with the most qualified individuals and not just the most popular individual? Who determines and how is an individual deemed qualified to run for these positions, what qualifications are considered? Training, experience , management skills leadership skills etc
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Sparky3317 on
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I absolutely do not at all.
These are popularity contests. Now sometimes the most popular guy may be the most experienced and worthy of the position. But if this is true this means he can pass an exam and prove he deserves the position not just because his department likes him.
Everybody who wants to be an officer should have to take an exam, pass a practical session, a physical test and an interview board. Because if you cant pass what the newbies are taking to get into the service how are you going to lead them on the fire ground.
All qualifications should be considered. The more experience and knowledge a person has the better off they are on the fire ground.
But their reputation should also come into affect. If the guys cannot trust him/her as a firefighter they wont trust them as an officer and that is one of the biggest factors an officer needs to have trust among his/her fellow brothers and sisters.
And remember just because someone can pass a test doesnt mean they know what they are doing, hence the practical portion.
I know alot of officers who have had to take the test multiple times because they arent good test takers and I would follow them anywhere. But I also know officers who could pass a test without ever opening a book, but they dont know their head from their ass on an actual fire ground.
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Permalink Reply by Tom Williams on
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I believe that elections can be an effective means pending on the members of the department. I will say that it happens a number of times that popularity & the good ol' boy system comes into play. I've experienced that on both departments I have been during my tenure. I believe a big part of getting rid of the good ol' boy system lies within the quality of the people on the department.
If the members take a stand and put someone into the officer's positions who have the training, experience and leadership skills then I think things can move forward in a positive manner. But I know that if you get the wrong person in things can also go the opposite way and real quick.
On our department there are requirements written in the By-Laws for each of the officer's positions. Our department is made up of the Chief, 2 Asst. Chiefs, 2 Captains & 2 Lieutenants. Each of these postions have training requirements & lenrth of service on the dept to coincide with that position. Overall, this has proved to be a fairly decent thing.
I don't totally agree with Sparky that officer's should be required to pass an exam, a practical session and a physical test. I do agree that the officers should be able to do everything or almost everything that the newer members are required to do. I do believe that all officer's should participate in as many trainings as their schedule will alow them to. By doing this they are building on the amount of respect that comes along with being that officer.
Volunteer departments and elections have been around a lot longer than I have and will be around long after I'm gone. The poplularity contest and the good ol' boy system have been around since day one and will continue to remain one of the unfortunate things that go along with a volunteer department. I would say that elections are working fine and if they're not we would see a lot more issues and problems on the ol' tv set.
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Permalink Reply by Brian Dumser on
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I agree with Chief France on this one. If you've got the certifications and experience, then the job should be yours.
Out here in Chicagoland, the only elected officers are in the Volunteer F.D's. My dept. tests for the positions of Lieutenant and Batt. Chief, while the Asst. Chief & Chief are appointed by the Board of Commissioners.
I'm not saying that one method is better than the other, but I think that testing for the position eliminates the possibility of a popularity contest that rewards the unqualified. Unless of course they have the right qualifications for the job.
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Tom
I understand not going to every training and such and that goes for all firefighters you make what you can when you can. Theres not many people that can make everything.
But why not pass the exams?
And with the thought of the officers not completing or having to do everything newer members have to do. If you wouldnt mind just explaining why so I can get a different point of view it would be greatly appreciated.
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Permalink Reply by Chris Weber on
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We have benn discussing this at our dept. for a couple months now.I know where you're coming from.It seems like 99% of the time it's a popularity contest and not based on experience or qualifications.I think(hopefully)after the first of the year we are going to do a major amount of work to our by-laws and SOG's and are going to officially lay down the min. quals. for officers,drivers,interior folks,etc...
It's going to be a major headache but one that needs to be done to at least start in the right direction.The only ones who will not like the end results,I think,will be the folks who have the officers buffaloed.It's going to be put up or shut up time.
I have been in the situation where an officer or two has won a position merely by winning the popularity contest and it CAN be a bad situation.
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Permalink Reply by Jason McDonald on
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I have seen far too many officers in elected positions that ended up power hungry and hurting the department overall so elected positions is a touchy subject. Exams, skill sets, and time in service, physical tests, should all be factors but popularity of an elections in most cases should not be deemed appropriate in a paid department. A volunteer department could have an election for certain positions but no matter paid or volunteer.. all elected positions should be closely monitored to ensure departmental procedures are followed.
I passed exams to become captain and then was voted in by the board of directors and commissioners. Then I still have performance reports and key performance indicators in which I need to comply to in order to ensure I am doing my job.
This could go either way, elected or chosen from exams.
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Permalink Reply by Russ on
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i came up in the vollies like that and (based on the tactics i worked under-i'm glad to be alive) allways wondered what criteria was used to "elect" offciers. i asked once and was told "he's made every state chief's conference since he's been with the department" or "he goes to all the the training meetings". from that point on i let it go knowing that this was the way it has been for generations. TODAY we cannot afford that luxury, the stakes are too high. there should be minium requirements
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Tom, no disrespect but how would you gauge the abilities of a prospective canadate for offcier? a written test and a practical session ok. physical test-i understand that to be the same as a practical session in the form of a tabletop for example. those should be the absolute basic. using where i am as an example, basic fire academy is split into 2 classess, there is fire officer 1 & 2, those kind of things should be the basic requirements including time in grade. i have been in a department that let a guy become an officer (2nd Lt.) because it was "his turn". he promptly pawned off alot of his administrative tasks to others so he could ride the front seat, play with the siren and airhorns and on scenes just became invisable letting other officers direct him on what to do, it was crazy and when his term was up he went no further. you cannot and should not allow that type of system to exist today
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Permalink Reply by Captain Ron on
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In my opinion elections create GOB's (Good ole Boy) clubs.
You need qualified and certified individuals. Officers that have been run through written along with practicle tests. An "Assessment Center" will get your best candidates for your officer ranks.
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Permalink Reply by Mike Schlags (Captain Busy) Retd on
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Alan, let me see if I fully understand what you are asking... the concept of electing someone to do a job is very foreign to me in the world I have worked in for close to 40 years.
Plan A: Promote an individual that has not trained (both didactic and manipulative), has no experience preparing for the job, may or may not have fought a fire, has no clue about political process, grant writing, apparatus purchasing but... everyone likes him?
Plan B: Promote an individual who has taken the time to prepare for the position, has taken classes and has on the job experience. This person in some cases may not have the ability to attend regional classes or even the national ones but has a computer and has taken tons of management courses, fire science courses, and anything they can get their hands on to know and understand their job so they can help others do theirs.
The answer to me is crystal clear...
CBz
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