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Should First or Second Engine Lay In?
I was recently on the phone with a friend from a neighboring fire department and we got on the subject of laying in at a structure fire. My department practices first in engine laying in his practices second in engine laying in. I am looking for feed back. I am thinking about reccomending to my department having the second in engine lay in. looking for good feedback.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Robert Owens on
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Permalink Reply by Todd on
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Typically our second due catches the hydrant unless it's close enough that we can hand lay the supply line.
Our engines all have 1000 gal booster tanks so we have a little more leeway than those departments that don't carry as much water. Also in our primary area the second and third due (we run three engines on all structure fires) are typically arriving within a minute or two of the first due and generally about the same time, thus usually we are able to be on dedicated water pretty quick.
That said, we don't have a hard and fast rule, allowing the company officer to make decisions based on the situation at hand.
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Permalink Reply by Michael Thomasson on
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I have been the chief of our vol. dept. for 4 years this time. I am only 36 but it seems to me that it would depend on if your fire dept had 3000 gal. super tanker that can pump 500 gpm. with 2, 1-1/2" pre connects. That is our first out. The sec. eng. that has a hose bed of 2600 ft of 3" hits the hydrants. may be 10 to 15 min. out. AND GET THIS! Only 5 out of 14 hydrants work! Dont worry the city is right on top of them. Thats what they keep telling me. I love fighting fire with limited water supply. keeps you on your toes.
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Permalink Reply by Mike Schlags (Captain Busy) Retd on
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I think the simplest answer would be to say... it depends. But instead, I want to explain my logic here because it really does depend on a lot of factors. If you are in a big city / metropolitan area with tons of engines responding with you then maybe it doesn't matter one way or another. But for me, working rural areas and metropolitan, it seemed consistent to get these long and narrow driveways that were either too far from a hydrant or in some cases the hydrant pressure was an issue.
If you have the first in engine lay lines into the incident, the second engine can tie into the hydrant and increase the pressure / gpm... If your department uses a truck company, then you might live in a world where you want the truck to have access first so they can do there thing... The photo above shows this concept with the engine laying line right behind the truck company.
There's always that issue of clogging up what little room you have with more apparatus. For me, it sure is a lot cleaner to keep it simple by having the first in engine handle their own water. If there is a delay in getting additional engines, you have water. I know there are always exceptions, such as life hazards or needed rescues that were identified early on. I personally always liked being as self sufficient as possible because help was not ever right around the corner...
CBz
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Permalink Reply by Just Plain Craig Moyer on
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We have 21 SOP's in the county. I've been to fires where as the 4th engine we were the first to lay in. Everyone would rather run to the fire. I htink the 2nd engine should at least stand by the hydrant until given further orders
One thing people seem to forget is putting an engine on the hydrant. They think because they have 4-5" hose it will always do the job. Sometimes a boost will help. had a 2 alarmer couple of weeks ago and water was an issue even thought there was enough hydrants. They keep laying line but didn't have one engine on a hydrant which would have most likely solved the problem.
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Permalink Reply by EngineLadder on
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In Bmore the first engine leads off and takes the front the 4th engine does the same and takes the rear. If the 1st and 4th do not then there officers are liable to be put on departmental charges. Or the chief will make them dump there whole bed and have every one else on the box watch them pick up hose. We lead off on all box alarms 5 engines 2 trucks 2 chiefs and a medic....and all tactical boxs 2 engines and a truck. Also 3 inch on every thing unless its a warehouse or highrise then 5inch.
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Permalink Reply by Jeff "NUKE" Newcomb on
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I have to agree with Tom, it depends on the incident. It also depends on manpower.
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Permalink Reply by FETC on
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Can't answer this question.
Depends on the manpower and equipment available for which everyone of us that is DIFFERENT. Where I work, we never lay in and the second due establishes water supply. First due quickly attacks the fire or protects the egress for start of S&R.
But if there was no second due or delayed, then laying in is the obvious correct answer.... so it all depends on the local resource allocation.
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Permalink Reply by Shareef Abdu Nur on
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This is completely dependent on your manpower, resources, and response district. In our area, 1st due Eng attacks off of tank water and 2nd due establishes a water supply. We are in a well hydranted district with a very established automatic aid and MABAS system.
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Permalink Reply by Dan Milovich on
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We're in an old city with most 2 1/2 story wood frame dwellings. Exposures are always a problem . In that setting the first in company always lays in the first line. We will work off our tank while the second in company establishes a water source. With a rapid agressive attack with the first in engine most of these fires can be knocked down or contained until the second line is layed in and operating. I think the delay waiting for the second in company would cause too much damage and risk loss of life. Just my 2 cents.
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Permalink Reply by Gary Stevenson on
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Depends on many factors, i.e., engine's tank size, next in engine ETA, construction type/occupancy/life hazards, exposures, training/experience, and on-and-on.
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Permalink Reply by Pararescue on
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In my Dept, when a credible report of a structure fire comes in, we have 3 Co's dispatched. First response area, full assignment. Next closest eng and rescue. Third engine and a truck. We will special call for the truck first after size up. Our engine 2 goes past the house and leaves room for the truck. Second engine backs down and drops a 3" and a 2.5" or 5" depending on size up, then lays to the hydrant. Tower ladder to the front of the house. Third engine in pulls forward for a quick deploy to a second hydrant if needed. IE: bad hydrant, low water pressure, etc. The rescue parks down the street.... no need for the tool box at this point. If you are in a rural or distant dept, change your response for a 2nd or 3rd Co to bring an engine. When they get there, you should have an engine o/l and ready for a reverse lay. And I'm not sure how everyone's SOP's are so make it mandatory for the 2nd due to drop their tank to you fast and get the hydrant in service. But if you are going to do this.... practice, practice, practice. It would suck to look like "Charlie Browns All Stars" in front of everyone that pays for your equipment, then ask each other "Why do we pay for this?"
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