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ADA and Firefighters
I was wondering how people felt about recruits who are disabled going through academy? What is your opinion on this? We have a recruit with uses a handicap placard whenever he goes someplace, even to the station. He is very overweight, I would like to say grossly. I do not know the reason for his acceptance except maybe to satisfy a portion of the American with Disabilities Act. That way no discrimination is show? Or to prove a point that maybe he should not have joined? I don't know the full reasoning so this is only my viewpoint.
How do other stations handle applications from those with handicaps?
I know that the three out stations that I drill with do not feel comfortable being on a call with this person cause if poop hit the fan we do not trust that he would be able to perform. If he is on a call with me do I as a probie have the right to tell my commanding officer that I do not feel safe in this persons hands or trust his abilities?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Matt Moore on
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Probie or not, if you don't feel safe let someone know so it doesn't happen again. I've had to do this a time or two for one of our officers driving abilities, hated to, but I don't want my life in his hands the way he drives.
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Permalink Reply by Jack/dt on
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Most departments have (or should have) a well defined job description that details what abilities the candidate must possess. Within very small tolerances fire departments do not need to hire anyone with respect to ADA.
This issue goes to the heart of many discussions in here, namely that many VFD's continue to operate as social clubs where anyone that knocks on the door is admitted. I realize the last time I made that comment you took exception to it but your own post here proves the point: Your department allowed a person to join who is "very overweight, I would like to say grossly." and your concern now is for your safety. Do you see my point about social clubs and allowing anyone to join now?
Also, with the minimal information available on your public profile, would this person (or others) recognize himself in this discussion? If so this is probably not the place to post your concerns. And yes, if you do have safety concerns you should take them to your station officer.
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Permalink Reply by Mark Oomkes on
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Can he\she pass the agility test that everyone else has passed?
Can he\she perform the same work that everyone else is required to?
If they meet the standards, they would have to be hired as I understand it. There is no quota as you are referring to.
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Permalink Reply by Fireyladd - Retired Chief Sharp on
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The prime reason for having physical standards and a screening process for applicants. We give all applicants a physical agility test based on State standards. If they cant perform the test they arnt in. Period!
Someone is opening up a can of worms. Hopefully you can convince your leadership of the error of this kind of thinking.
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Permalink Reply by Patti Walz on
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I don't know if this person could pass a test and as I am not mentioning any names, or locations I don't feel this is a concern. I am going by what I see so far with this group and I know that I would not be confident to have this person at my back. I do not know the reason for his handicap, but would this not be a red flag to the department that there could be issues in the future?
What if someone showed up on a call who you know is an alcoholic, but cannot prove whether they have been drinking that night/day or not?
I understand the points and I can recognize that.
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Permalink Reply by Damo on
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I am sorry but I don't see being overweight an official disabilty and they shouldn't be allowed a disable card for their car, especially if he wants to become a FF. But, if he can perform certain duties i.e. manning the rehab truck then he is a valuable asset to the team. I would not want to go into a fire with him and then he keels over and I have to pull him out. That puts me in danger, the rest of my team, and possibly RIT as well. During my basic class there was an older gentlemen with some extra pounds and he said from the start all he wants to do is help on the fire scene. He knows his limitations and was willing to do what ever he can. Any body can be an asset if they work hard and do what they can without putting anyone else in danger.
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Permalink Reply by John Crabbe on
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He is very overweight, I would like to say grossly. I do not know the reason for his acceptance except maybe to satisfy a portion of the American with Disabilities Act. That way no discrimination is show?
Most departments have (or should have) a well defined job description that details what abilities the candidate must possess. Within very small tolerances fire departments do not need to hire anyone with respect to ADA.
Jack is absolutely correct here. If the job description is well defined it does seriosly have an impact on people who should be considered for the job and who shouldn't be. Another step is to have a physical in place prior to getting hired, this is for any dept, career, combi, or volly. If they can't pass they don't get in. A physical agility should also be a serious consideration because if they can't pass, they aren't hired.
ADA doesn't have much of a gripe to go on when it does come to protective services, because of a defined job description. In many cases in many jobs, accomodations can be made to satisfy ADA, but in fire and even police, you really can't make those accomodations.
I also agree with Jack in the aspect of the social club here. If there are serious questions as to why the person is hired, they should be brought up. If the person can't meet the job description they shouldn't be on. Although don't point fingers unless one knows they can also satisfy said requirements. What I mean here is that when someone defines what THEY will do on a fireground (IE exterior only, driver only) etc, then that would be a social club mentality. A FF should be able to meet all the requirements. In this case it is possible the guy could, but having a job description and standards goes a long way in determining who should and shouldn't be on the job.
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I do not know the reason for his handicap, but would this not be a red flag to the department that there could be issues in the future?
One would think, but again, this is why it is important to have a thorough screening process with a well defined job description a physical, etc. I know money issues always get mentioned as to why many volly depts can't afford physicals, but your own words "I would not be confident to have this person at my back".....speaks as to why such things should be in place. It is about dept safety, not just the individual. Also I would be hesitant to have someone who is there for a certain job like driving only etc....that is a social club mentality.
What if someone showed up on a call who you know is an alcoholic, but cannot prove whether they have been drinking that night/day or not?
How can you prove they are an alcoholic in the first place? There is a difference between suspicion and proof. Proving if someone has been drinking and then shows up for a call is the easy part, there are breathalyzers and blood tests which can be done. Again such policies should be defined. If the dept has nothing in regards to showing up sober for calls and there is a FF who was drinking, it is hard to enforce a non-existing rule. However, if there is policy or SOG stating one shall be completely sober if responding to calls, then there can be grounds to check the suspicion.
The dept really doesn't have a say too much in what the person does on their off time, if say the person is an alcholic as you mention. If the dept suspects the person was drinking and shows up to the station for training, call, etc and there is a suspicion of drinking, it is a chance for the dept to address the problem and help the person get help. Until that point, everything else is suspicion.
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Permalink Reply by Fabulous Heather Days of Summer on
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Hey Patti:
I kinda feel like there are two issue which you have overlapped. I am not sure that the ADA status is really the problem. Lots of people who are protected under the rules of ADA could serve in the fire service with little or no impact to their job or the fire service.
I agree you need to be very careful posting things like this in public, since this is airing your department's dirty laundry and many, including your superiors, may be bothered to see this posted in a public, permanent place.
Several other people already pointed this out - it seems that you have health and safety concerns which are related to his physical health and the potential that may have related to physical performance. There are many issues in the fire service which can bring into question health and safety, always take this up with your Chief or training officers.
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Is it being insubordinate to tell your commanding officer that you do not want to go interior with someone you do not feel safe with?
I can speak from my experience that when someone had signed up to be a volunteer he/she told me that they have had legal problems in the past due to drinking and currently does not hold a D/L and is known to have some wild parties at his/her place in which we were dispatched to for medical assist. Our policies are if you drink you don't show. There has to be at least 8 hours between your last drink and the time you go on a call.
Jack the more I read and learn the more I understand your point of view.
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Thank you. I have talked with my Lt about these issues. When I post things I do not use names or try to make it gender neutral. These are questions that I have been asking since I started because I do not want to step on anyones toes, or discriminate, or in any way reflect badly on my station. Has anyone had to deal with these kinds of situations? I want to be able to voice concerns on scene in a respectful manner.
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Is it being insubordinate to tell your commanding officer that you do not want to go interior with someone you do not feel safe with?
In short, yes. You are disobeying an order. If they are qualified to do so, then you don't have much of a choice. Your concerns may be valid, but you are disobeying an order, so expect to endure the consequences of the actions.
Our policies are if you drink you don't show. There has to be at least 8 hours between your last drink and the time you go on a call.
Then said policy is in place. If there is suspicions of ETOH consumption while operating as a FF, then that would be grounds for testing said individual, vs playing "what ifs".
I can speak from my experience that when someone had signed up to be a volunteer he/she told me that they have had legal problems in the past due to drinking and currently does not hold a D/L
Hence another reason for having proper screenings done of people applying for such jobs. Yes, being a volunteer is a job. Many depts require a driver's license to get on, some legal problems could be reviewed, but isn't always grounds for non-acceptance.
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