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FDNY Chooses Not To Hire Rookies Amid Bias Suit
NEW YORK - New York City won't hire rookie firefighters until a new entry exam is created to replace one a judge has declared discriminatory.
The city's law department had until Friday to choose one of five alternatives to hire entry-level firefighters while awaiting the new exam.
But the department said in a letter to the court it is choosing none of the alternatives because they all involved a race-based quota. Corporation Counsel head Michael Cardozo says that would be bad public policy.
U.S. District Judge Nicholas Garaufis (GEHR'-ah-fuhs) found in August that the test used by the mostly white department was unfair to black and Hispanic applicants.
It's not clear how long it will take to create and approve a new test.
Copyright 2010 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
The city's law department had until Friday to choose one of five alternatives to hire entry-level firefighters while awaiting the new exam.
But the department said in a letter to the court it is choosing none of the alternatives because they all involved a race-based quota. Corporation Counsel head Michael Cardozo says that would be bad public policy.
U.S. District Judge Nicholas Garaufis (GEHR'-ah-fuhs) found in August that the test used by the mostly white department was unfair to black and Hispanic applicants.
It's not clear how long it will take to create and approve a new test.
Copyright 2010 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Vic Silverfish on
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well done to post so much primary source material. I might advise against using the NY Post as a source, they are pretty much a tabloid.
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Permalink Reply by Fabulous Heather Days of Summer on
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yeah i wasn't posting gospel, just some written thoughts of others that have been discussing it. some of it breaks down the issue better than I could without doing specific research for the NYFD
and many people in NY (especially) don't consider the NY Post to be a tabloid - it holds authority here
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No worries. I am totally digging that you have posted your references, Especially the firelaw blog post. Too much of the opinion in America is woefully uninformed, so regardless of where you come down on this issue, that you've done a bit of research gives you credibility and gives me hope for the future.
We'll just have to disagree about the NY Post.
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Permalink Reply by John Crabbe on
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It is discrimination to ask my gender
" " my name
" " my age
" " my race
if you want to know my gender - you make assumptions
.. etc. that can start the ball rolling
Difference with all that Heather, is the simple fact that people were NOT discriminated against to take the test, where such information is asked. The issue comes AFTER the test was taken and you have folks calling for bias, with a judge agreeing with them. The "solutions" to remedy the situation.....to fix a "biased" test calls for a race-based quota system vs the top scorers moving on, which one can view as......bias.
Oh and since you are in a researching mood, perhaps you may want to check out an article from a Gary, IN newspaper several years ago where the city was facing similar allegations of biased tests. A reporter took the test and made many of the same comments I did here. And, unless I'm mistaken I do believe the reported stated he was black.
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Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on
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"Equal Opportunity" means exactly that,. It does not mean "Equal Results".
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I wasn't really picking sides as much as stimulating conversation.
And yes you are right trying to fix one bias by creating another bias is ridiculous - but i think there is no perfect solution. I was pointing out some issues which classically have caused hiring problems - there is research on names, ages, race, and gender influencing the perceptions of the test/resume examiners, even before looking at test scores.
And the problem with issues like race and gender and age is that there will always be outliars (variation within a group) - meaning it will not happen 100% of the time.
No one even seems to be considering matters like IQ. If the test is being accused of having an unneccessarily high reading competency level - then those who had a better education growing up would obviously do better on that component of the test.
And there is a VAST difference between high schools in NY and the quality of the education one obtains in order to get a high school diploma.
In my brief search I could not find the list of actual questions on the test to post specific questions which could be misconstrued, has double meaning, or is bias in a specific racial (or otherwise) direction.
*** one of the primary issues it seems that they are being charged with is failure to establish an examination that has been properly set up under the professional standards of questionnaire development - which requires sample testing and re-testing to work through some of the issues of bias. This further makes them appear to be bias merely because their history has been dominantly white male which made them believe that they did not even need to properly test their questionnaire for validitiy and reliability across the racial and gender spectrum (specifically).
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If you were educated in Harlem and I in Manhattan - we did not have an equal opportunity at education to prepare us for any employment test.
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Permalink Reply by Spanner 122 on
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It would almost seem to me that it's more discriminatory to say, "these tests are too hard for black and Hispanic applicants." What the hell?
An easy answer would be to go to a testing system like is used in most departments in Ontario. CPS (aptitude) and the lesser used OSFF (psych). When used together, the pass rate is still only 20% (at most) and that's for an applicant pool of 80-90% white males. You have to study and not be a glory hound in order to pass, it knocks most of the white dudes out and seems to maintain the women and minorities. It's not biased one way or the other, but the white male seems to be more of an unnecessary risk taker (as indicated by answers given). Interesting.
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If you were educated in Harlem and I in Manhattan - we did not have an equal opportunity at education to prepare us for any employment test.
Harlem IS in Manhattan.
Why wouldn't there be an equal opportunity at education? The schools still fall under the curriculum for NY, there are still the same tests and so forth, it isn't like they are teaching things special just for whites, or in a different borough....the same opportunity for education is there, to say it isn't is quite a stretch. Schools still have to conform to the same standards.
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The fire department is not responsible for disparities in education.
The fire department is responsible to provide equal opportunity to test for employment.
The purpose of the fire department is to save lives and property.
It is not the purpose of the fire department to be responsible for a giant, expensive social engineering experiment mandated by people who have no idea what it takes to hire and train a successful firefighter candidate.
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"This further makes them appear to be bias merely because their history has been dominantly white male which made them believe that they did not even need to properly test their questionnaire for validitiy and reliability across the racial and gender spectrum (specifically)."
So what? The "appearance" of bias doesn't equal bias.
The issue is that the judge has thrown out a test that appears to have a bias for choosing the candidates who are best qualified to extinguish fire, handle other life threats to their city's citizens, and communicate in ways that promote the other two objectives.
The test used is pretty obviously gender-blind, race-blind, and ethnicity-blind.
If the results are skewed toward one subset of the candidate pool, the first consideration should be to disprove that the top-ranked candidates are really the best qualified. The judge nor anyone else has done that.
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And yes you are right trying to fix one bias by creating another bias is ridiculous - but i think there is no perfect solution
Actually, there is a perfect solution, it is called taking the most qualified, highest score first, regardless of race. If one doesn't pass, or scores lower than others, you work on the weaknesses instead of creating some excuse the test is biased. I mean to say that minorities who score lower making a trumped up excuse of a race issue is like a slap in the face for those who have worked harder and accomplished goals.
See, the military uses testing for advancement and today's standards are based in score. There was a time and place for Affirmitive Action, but not so much today. If the military can promote based on those who score the best, irregardless of race, then why is there such an issue in the civil service sector?
No one even seems to be considering matters like IQ. If the test is being accused of having an unneccessarily high reading competency level - then those who had a better education growing up would obviously do better on that component of the test.
The fire service is no longer a "find em dumb, keep em dumb" service. It takes education and a certain level of IQ to do the job, the standards are there for a reason. Reading is something one can improve on, as any other component of the test. The standards for the test should also reflect the standards for the certifications. If one has a lower IQ and can't pass the written test, then how do you justify hiring someone who may not pass the certification test? Besides, if one really saw the reading aspects of this test, it would be difficult to say it is an unnecessarily high standard.
This further makes them appear to be bias merely because their history has been dominantly white male
The fire service as a whole is predominantly white male, the most people applying for such jobs is predominantly white male, (there is a reason a job announcement doesn't state white males encouraged to apply), those in school for fire protection education is predominantly white male. Bottom line is when there are such high numbers of one group testing, the numbers will favor that group, it has nothing to do with bias.
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