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VES
I know there's a lot of smaller volunteer departments on here and I was just curious how many of you use VES on a regular basis.(Career departments too) VES, Vent Enter Search for those that don't know, seems like it would actually be fairly beneficial to smaller departments because you can get more done at once. Here the hook man on the truck and sometimes the tillerman will perform VES. We already have the bar man inside forcing doors and searching by himself in front of the engine company. Then the rescue squad has two teams searching as well. If the hook man is throwing ladders, it saves time if he just does a quick search since he's already breaking out the window.(We never throw a ladder without breaking the window. Otherwise there's no point in the ladder)
Here's a nice video by a guy I work with. He's the tillerman on 17 Truck. It shows how quick you can have a ladder up, ventilate, perform a search, and get out by yourself. He recorded it with his helmet cam and used it for a training company run by himself, other DCFD guys, and some FDNY guys. Hope this helps some people. He has several others on YouTube as well that are interesting.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Jack/dt on
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WP,
You no tht was a mentel slip. Dose tht meen eye have to corek everone of your littel slipups?
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Permalink Reply by WestPhilly on
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/dt,
I'me not sure how to anser that won.
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Permalink Reply by Robert Owens on
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That is our truck companies plan A for reported victims trapped in a residential occupancy, or rescue mode operations with no occupant accountability. Basically it bullseyes your search to the most likely areas that a victim will be found.
We only run 3 on a truck so the officer and firefighter will VES while the driver performs outside functions (force dor for engine company, horizontal vent, vertical vent if needed, alternate egress, ground ladders, utility control)
I think its a great tacticbut its not something you just want to jump into it needs to be table topped (discussion of roles, expectations, size up, deployment, tool assignments etc.) then trained on, prior to it being placed into your company repitoire. This is a very aggressive tactic and if not executed properly could back fire BIG TIME!!!!! Make no mistake this is not the END ALL BE ALL of search and rescue there is a specific fire condition, staffing level, and training/experience level needed to put this tactic into use.
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I think what he is saying is they rarely get to use it because alot of people in his area self rescue due to the presence of smoke detectors, alarm systems, sprinklers etc. I dont wanna speak for him but thats what I gathered when I read his post.
I hope all departments are performing some type of search even if its sifting through the ashes after a house burns to the ground.
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Permalink Reply by Rob Young on
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I have been a volunteer firefighter for 15 years on several departments over time. I go to trainings regularly and I only heard about this operation about a month ago when I went to a training that a former large city fire cheif was puting on. No one on my current department had heard of this either. If we get the chance to do a search during a fire, we usually use two-three man teams and enter through a door way into the structure and then progress through a search pattern. I am also the training officer now, and plan to introduce this concept to our department along with some other ways to search structures which seam far more safe and efficient than what we have been doing.
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Permalink Reply by John Crabbe on
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We have trained on this and have executed VES in the past, but it doesn't happen too often here. Like much of anything else this tactic is another tool we can utilize and every dept does do things differently.
Like Ben, there can be several reasons that we don't execute VES. If we roll on scene and have a report that people are out, then we probably are not going to do VES. This doesn't mean a traditional search doesn't occur, but just we aren't doing VES. Secondly, we don't have dedicated truck/engine roles here. Everyone is able to work on any rig at anytime, so there is not always a defined role. Such that it may not be uncommon here to end a pump crew in to do forcible entry and search, or even roof ops if a truck is committed elsewhere.
I like the video and it does show a good tactic with good execution. It also delves into some issues we don't have yet here and that is burglar bars. This is a good tactic and something that should be taught/learned and something considered on a fireground. Does VES need to be executed on every fire? Probably not, but is something to consider.
With some recent budget cuts here, we are also down to 2 full time trucks in the city, which means pump crews will do more on scene. In the video you can see that hoselines are being pulled while the FF is throwing the ladder. If this were us and a truck isn't there right away, the fire can be knocked down well before a truck company can commit to VES, or even another pump crew. Chances are if there is a line being pulled, the second pump is doing back up. Getting the fire out also gets rid of the hazard. Like I mentioned this is a good tactic to know, just that VES isn't always done due to other factors a dept faces. The video shows VES with a FF entering from the porch roof into the room, fine for that, little different if a ladder has to be thrown to each window. If we believe there is a person in a room above a fire, there wouldn't be a hesitation to VES, just that VES isn't done on every fire.
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WOW.....thats like speaking Spanish.....not knowing about VES....Well Im glad you guys discovered it....One question is why do you think it has taken this tactic so long to trickle down to your FD?
You say you go to trainings, who is leading this training? Are you reading fire service publications, and visiting "Tactical" fire service websites? I can think of thousands upon thousands of articles, videos, and training classes that offer information on this tactic.
I would recommend getting an experienced instructor on this topic come in a do a weekend class on not only VEs but fire ground search in general. I can recommend several if you want to hear it just let me know....Stay safe brother.
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Permalink Reply by Rich Lockhart on
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Where I work they do VES. We are an urban community with a lot of older construction that makes VES easy and effective. We're a combination department and I'm on the engine. It seems that whether VES gets done depends on who shows up on the truck.
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Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on
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That's not what I said. We search every structure and every vehicle with a 7-sided search, every time.
We just don't need to do VES very often, because the fires are usually small, incipient, and either extinguished by the sprinklers or by the first engine company.
We also have a lot of occupancies where it is faster for the search team to use the stairs than to ladder over the fire for VES.
VES is one search methodology in the toolbox. We just use other ventilation methodologies more often because we don't have many situations that call for VES.
And, most of the occupants are indeed outside with a civilian PAR due to smoke detectors, fire alarm systems, and self-rescue prior to our arrival, as Robert surmised.
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Philly's got all kinds of terms. How about up and over? Should start a thread on that and see who knows what that is. I did it for years till I heard your term for it.
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Vent "up and over" or ladder pipe "up and over"???
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