Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Oldman on March 18, 2008 at 4:41pm

First off, it sounds as if you have a title in name only, which is unfortunate. However, the captains and chief's should have the ability to discipline. Male, Female, makes no difference. Insubordination is insubordination.

From what I know about WA, there are several requirements and skills proficiency evaluations which have to be completed each year after certifying depending on the level of certification. After the 3rd quarter, it sounds like he would be pushing it to get them completed. He apparently didn't think the rules applied to him. As far as his gross insubordination with his comments, on my department, he would have been out the door. But that is how our policies are set up. Whether volunteer or paid, I as a captain have the authority to suspend for up to 30 days, and have done so for a lot less flagrant violations. Had my chief been present when that comment was made, he would have been on a permanent vacation.

As far as his abandonment on an emergency scene would not only result in his immediate termination, but a formal complaint would be filed with the state authority, and in Texas would probably result in decertification, as a threat to public safety.

Suggestions, have and enforce;

A policy spelling out what authority each position has and what disciplinary remedies are available for each position.

A policy addressing willful misconduct, insubordination, and conduct/behavior unbecoming and disciplinary remedies.

A policy and enforcement procedures for the department to "sponsor" an employee/member for training of this type including the required continuing education requirements of the department and the state.

I'm sure if I thought long enough, I could think of a few more. As far as the "degrading" letter, I had to learn over the years to be like a duck. As a supervisor you have to let it roll off your back. When you do your job to the best of your ability, go by department policy, and the law... who cares what someone else thinks?

Permalink Reply by Donna aka McGuyver on March 19, 2008 at 2:14pm

We do have policies that each member must read and sign acknowledging that they have read and understood the policies, but sometimes I wonder if they just sign their name. I do feel that the policies need to be refined though and more thoroughly explained. As far as the Chief, we are on our 3rd one since that incident. The 1st one retired which I found out later that he didn't want to do anything because he was close to retirement and didn't like conflicts. The 2nd one moved out of the area. The current Chief I made very clear to him that I will not ever tolerate that kind of behavior from anyone ever again. I don't know if it was wrong for me to stand up to him, but I felt I needed to after what happened. He has been with the dept. for 7 years so he is fully aware of what went on. I told him that if he won't support me in any future decisions then maybe I shouldn't be part of the dept. I follow my policies and procedures as outlined in my titile description and I feel that everyone else including the Chief should do the same. We have thought of a new policy to put in place as far as sending personnel through any medical training. We thought of having them deposit with the department the cost of the class and when they finish the class they will receive that money back. I try to get them to respond to calls just so they can get an idea of what is required of them and what they can expect. This way they can determine if this is even something they want to do. I make it very clear that you have to have the right kind of attitude and strong will to go on medical calls because there are times that you will see some pretty bad calls and you may know the patient. I like to see how they react with the patient and the family. Sometimes you can tell if they will cut it or not, not always though. I don't want to discourage people from joining, but I don't want to have repeat performances as with the one guy. I care way too much about my patients, their family and my work to be too lenient or lax about my judgement. (I hope that makes sense).

Permalink Reply by Andrew on March 19, 2008 at 3:25pm

Its sounds to me that this guy does not need to be in any kind of uniform except one from a fast food establishment. It sounds like the Captains and Chiefs do not need to be in charge if they will not deal with problems like that. I can guarantee you that he would not make it in my department.

Permalink Reply by Oldman on March 19, 2008 at 7:55pm

Makes absolute sense. The best way to limit the likelihood of misunderstanding is to be up front, respectful, and concise. It sounds to me that you have done that, so there should not be much in the way of a "gray area" between you and your Chief.

A reimbursement program is probably the best way to ensure your members will follow through with their obligations. My department has a similar program after having people take courses, and then leave the department soon afterward.

Hang in there, you appear to have the attitude and compassion which not only makes you an asset for the patients you take care of, but also reflects favorably on your department.

Permalink Reply by Dusty Baize on March 19, 2008 at 11:45pm

wow. i don't know what to tell ya. I'm going though the same problem myself but i'm a male. I've tryed not to be a hard ass on anyone. I get along with everone but when it comes down to respect for me it's right out the window. I'm not sure what to do. i have been starting to get pissed about it and people backes off but we have this one kid on the dept that is bouncing off the walls. just tonight he wanted to do something and i told him not to. i told him that when i'm told to have it done that i'll have him come and do it. he told me he didn't care about what i said. he was going to do what he wanted. well i won but i know it not over yet.

Permalink Reply by Donna aka McGuyver on March 20, 2008 at 1:40pm

Thank you. It sure helps to get input from other people that are not affiliated with my department. I will continue to stand my ground because in my heart and my mind I know it is the right thing to do for the department and the community.

Permalink Reply by Donna aka McGuyver on March 20, 2008 at 1:51pm

I know where you are coming from. I don't like to be a hard ass either, but unfortunately I don't have much choice at times. I am doing everything I can (legally) to avoid ever having to step into a mess like that again. I started by demanding stricter policies from my chief and Board of Commissioners. I am currently waiting to get those approved. I have to write them up the way I feel they should be worded and present them for approval before they can be enacted. I recently acquired a young recruit similar to yours that bounces off walls. I have to bite my tongue at times. He feels that anything that isn't currently being used should belong to him. And if I tell him no he runs to the chief and asks which really pisses me off. I then have to go explain to the chief why I said no and he usually sides with me because he knows my reasons are justified. I swear sometimes I want to just scream uuuggghhh. I tell people we are not a babysitting service and if they cannot act mature and responsible then this is not the place for them.... Someone will get hurt. Hang in there. If I come across anything that may be beneficial I will post it. Talking on here has given me insight and strength to stick to my guns.

Permalink Reply by Dusty Baize on March 20, 2008 at 10:04pm

allright thanks. sometime i really don't know what to do with some of the guys under me. i was riped into one night becaues one ff went on a run that was another depts run. he came to the fire house after that run and i talked to him when he came here. i had someone elce there with me. all i told him was he need to take his raido off scan when he went to bed. thats it's didn't yell or anything. no reason to. well he left the fd at 2am. he called my chief and asst chief. the chief didn't really say anything to me. but my asst. riped my ass. didn't give me a chance to say anything. really i though about give up my cap and maybe leaveing the dept but then if i went some where elce i would have to start over. don't really want to do that. I blow up a few days after that so i think that the chief got my point. Ever time i do something i call the chief and tell him. i know he's going to get pissed about me calling but i just try to cover my ass.

Permalink Reply by Pat Showers on March 20, 2008 at 11:46pm

Sounds like you can get this guy for neglect for leaving a scene and have his certs permanetly pulled so he can no longer practice as a emt any were at all ever again. this guy is not fit to be called a brother in any way shape or form. It also sounds like the chief and the Captains need repromands by your board of directors. This is not leading by example. We as company officers are obligated to lead our crews, disiple when we need to and mold them to be future company officers. If your management is doing this and turning a blind eye to what is going on then in my oppinion they are no better than this guy that has created the problem. the crews see what is going on and think if it is ok for the Chief and the Captains to do this , its ok for me to the same or worse. and you have major disfuntion as someone is going to die plain and simple.

Permalink Reply by Rick on July 23, 2008 at 5:52pm

This is a case were the the cheif and other commanding officers should have stepped in, and should have set the this person straight. If officers don't work together and let things like this happen you'll never be treated with respect. It's sad to say thing's like this happen in today's world. People should be judged be their actsions and not by the sex, age, or race. But unfortantly some people don't see thing's this way.

Permalink Reply by Tim on July 25, 2008 at 11:23pm

In being raised around the fire department my whole life, it was pretty much embeded in my mind that regardless of your personal feelings toward someone, you must always respect their rank. From what is mentioned, it sounds like you were doing nothing except trying to keep up to date with your responsibilities as the Medical Officer. The simple fact of gender should not be a deciding factor in respect. If the person is trained to an adequate level and performs their job as they are supposed to, then their should be no excuse. Bottom line is, you are his ranking officer. Liked by him or not, respect of rank should always be shown. Unfortunately after numerous repeated attempts if he doesn't comply then it may be time to get your superiors involved.