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State requirements for charged line at extrication
In the Ky county where i am the rescue squad is seperate from the fire departments. When they are called to a MVA no fire dept. is toned out even if there is extrication involved. Only if there is something burning will fire dept be sent. We feel that a charged line is inportant safety measure for all on scene. Some say it is state law to do have a charged line and some say it is up to the local county to make this choice. If this is a manditory requirement I was needing to know where to find it. Most departments feel this way from the discussions I have read. Any help would be appreciated.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Gregory Borg on
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Buddy,
It is an extremely good idea to hacve a charged hose line with a full PPE/SCBA for everyone's protection at an extrication. If you do not have a fire company then you should have a rescueman with full PPE/SCBA standing by with a drypowder and a pumpcan in case of a fire. That would be a minimum for your own safety.
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Permalink Reply by Mike Schlags (Captain Busy) Retd on
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Sound to me like you are dealing with more than one issue here... hence the post title that has the word "State" in it. While it makes sense as a firefighter to be proactive when it comes to emergency response, you have to look at it from the other side of the coin. Budgetary considerations may play a part when it comes to how often and when an engine is dispatched. How many MVA's result in a car fire? You have to be prepared to both document and justify what it is that you want changed. Are there incident(s) that you have documented that illustrate the need to have an engine company on scene.
What most of us end up with, and I am including the State of California, law enforcement folks (California Highway Patrol) have scene management responsibilities, which means for us that a LEO is dispatched first to see if additional equipment is needed. You and I both know that delays are death. The Golden Hour was reduced some time back to the Golden 1/2-hour... EMS / FD folks understand this. It's your job to make others appreciate this as well.
But... do you have the necessary documentation to justify what it is you are asking for? I really don't think you are going to change the system here buddy. Sorry.
CBz
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Permalink Reply by Ron Ayotte on
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My FD's response to a MVC is an engine and the rescue. If we need a line it is available, but we do not routinely deploy a charged hose line at an accident.
Some FD's will deploy hose lines when a medevac helo is dispatched. We will send an engine to cover one of the designated LZ's, but we will not pull or charge the line. A case in point.. we had a serious MVC on the highway... two rescues, two engines and three ambulances were committed. We called for a third engine (a mutual aid company) to cover for the helo landing. They arrived on scene and proceeded to deploy and charge two 200 foot 1.75" lines...
The only problem was... the pilot wasn't comfortqble with the area they wanted him to land in... there were power lines nearby and he landed a good 200 feet away from where they had the lines deployed...
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Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on
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Actually, CBz, new medical evidence purports to show that the Golden Hour theory has no scientific validity. There was a good
debate arguement mud-slinging contestdiscussion about this on JEMS.Connect a while back.
Apparently, what is important is to rapidly get airways, respiratory and cardiovascular support, and bleeding control in the field. Rather than rapid transport, appropriate destinations for the specific injuries are what the newest science is showing as the most important in reducing trauma patient morbidity and mortality.
As with lots of other things inEMSmedicine, what we thought we knew isn't always factual or supported by scientific evidence.
The Golden Hour thing was a religion for me for a long time - something to do with running wrecks in Maryland around the time that Dr. Cowley opened ShockTrauma and started the MSP medevac program.
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I don't know of any state, local, or other political jurisdiction that has a requirement for a charged hoseline for extrication. OSHA has no such requirement, either. because it doesn't regulate working MVCs.
Is it a good idea - sure. Is it absolutely necessary - not at all.
Some form of adequate fire protection is required - a couple of large ABC extinguishers, a couple of water cans mixed with Class B foam concentrate, etc.
I used to volunteer with a rescue squad that responded to a couple of remote areas that had no organized fire department - only Forestry. We set up one of our light-duty squads with a 200-gallon premixed Class B foam tank with a 1/2 inch line. The nozzle was electrically operated - we literally pushed a button to get the foam flowing. The electrical cable was a spiral wrap around the foam line. We didn't use it much, but it was nice to have when we needed it.
Most importantly, how many times have you seen a car burst into flames during an extrication? I've seen a few car fires with entrapment. Virtually all of them were burning when the 911 call was received.
In 35 years and running literally thousands of wrecks, I've seen vehicles catch fire during extrications exactly twice. One was extinguished with a single burst from a small ABC extinguisher (off of an ambulance) and one extinguished with a 0.5 second squirt from a hoseline.
Fire protection at extrications is a good idea, but if there's not a fuel spill, sparking electrical system, or other fire hazard present, the chance of the vehicle bursting into flames during extrication is actually very, very rare.
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Ron, we rarely use unimproved LZs any more. In the interests of helo crew safety, we transport to a helispot right in front of the ARFF station at our local airport.
When we do use an unimproved LZ, we send an engine company to fire protect it. We don't pull or charge a line so that if there is a problem while the helo is on short final or just after it takes off, we can quickly move the engine to where the problem is instead of uncoupling or repacking the hoseline first.
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Permalink Reply by Paul Montpetit on
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Check with !st NFPA, then Look under OSHA or even PESH....Here it is supposed to be 2 Charged lines and a Chem extinguisher.....with air packs.....
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Permalink Reply by Norm Tindell on
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I doubt the charged line at an extrication ecene would be a state requirement. It would be, however, a wise thing to do and should be a department SOP.
If one of your chief officers as ever seen a person burning inside a car like my chief did when he was a young firefighter that will be standard.
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Permalink Reply by Michael Meadows on
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Buddy, the place to look and see if it's there is the KRS (Kentucky Revised Statutes). If it's not there then you will have to see how to go about getting it put in there. I'm not sure exactly which ones to look at but KRS 75 is generally the ones dealing with the fire depts. I know we are toned out to all MVC's in our county coverage area. We also have extrication tools and people certified to use them, that may be a factor in why that is. I wasn't here when it was decided how we got to respond on MVC's but I do know that our rescue truck has tools and 300 gal. C.A.F.S. system. As I said that may be a factor I'm not sure. Good luck.
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Permalink Reply by Buddy Chandler on
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Thanks for the info. Just want to keep everyone safe and do whats best for the community.
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snake bite treatment, golden hour, whether to do CPR or just breath, rapid CPR verses slower, defibrillator usage by EMT's... and on and on... another reason why we never stop training. the rules keep changing, even if it's a "Golden" rule... lol
thanks for the update Ben.
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Ben.... we don't either. We have 13 designated LZ's in the city... but there are times where we have had to land the helo (never call it a "bird" or a "chopper".. it drives the pilots crazy) on the highway. That was the instance I mentioned in my post.
We send an engine to cover the LZ except for the FAA designated helipads and the airport.
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