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Footing The Ladder, Right Way Or Wrong Way?
I have a 'continuing' discussion with a few people (all of whom have only ever worked with/on ladders since joining the department) about the right way to foot (or heel) a ladder. Granted I was "taught" the fire service way -to stand beneath the ladder holding the rails- but when I'm footing the ladder I stand facingit (and when climbing I'd prefer the footer do the same).
I've done carpentry/construction for years and have never seen anyone stand beneath a ladder. The risk of being hit by dropped tools/materials is too great. Yet the fire service still teaches this method.
In my opinion, footing the ladder while facing it allows the footer to watch the FF climbing, be aware of any hazards (including dropped tools) and, under conditions or situations where the ladder might slip, allow the footer to actually stand on the bottom rung for additional ballast.
I'm not looking for a poll as to which way you do it but rather, sound arguments for one way or the other.
I've done carpentry/construction for years and have never seen anyone stand beneath a ladder. The risk of being hit by dropped tools/materials is too great. Yet the fire service still teaches this method.
In my opinion, footing the ladder while facing it allows the footer to watch the FF climbing, be aware of any hazards (including dropped tools) and, under conditions or situations where the ladder might slip, allow the footer to actually stand on the bottom rung for additional ballast.
I'm not looking for a poll as to which way you do it but rather, sound arguments for one way or the other.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Jack/dt on
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Here is a video that I feel bolsters my argument for facing the ladder. Had the firefighter on the ground been facing the ladder he would have known when the firefighter was on the roof, instead he must have guessed and walked away (or else food showed up.)
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Permalink Reply by Spanner 122 on
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I've learned both ways, but very rarely on the fire ground would I stand behind the ladder. In training, perhaps, when simply climbing to a high point.
I would think either way would be acceptable if paying attention.
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Permalink Reply by Mike Moore on
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And I thought I was the only one who was scratching his head and thinking, "Why stand under the ladder?" How would you know a rescue is taking place? I could easily see some poor sap standing there under the ladder...told "never look up"...and he is completely oblivious to what is going on. Im' with you, Jack, as much as I despise the under-the-ladder footing, I teach both/and, but I would love to have a "textbook" instructor tell us why we stand under the ladder. I think this will lead to some fruitful discussion! Thanks for kicking it off Jack!
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Permalink Reply by ff/emt 2155 on
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well now all my bro's here say i dont post enough so i will comment on this one i;ve been in ems almost 25yrs i have been ff-1 2yrs now and proud of it as far as footing the ladder i prefer the firefighter trained way at the base looking up as for anything falling you have ur helmet and you are watching the man on the ladder so you will know when something is comming down the pike and to take cover thanx and everyone be safe
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Here are a couple of more links for my argument of facing the ladder (since my "experience" is intangible to those I've had this discussion with.)
http://books.google.com/books?id=i4bmE2TqY6sC&pg=PA286&lpg=...
http://www.fireengineering.com/index/articles/display/216099/articl...
See section 4.8 - http://www.staffordshire.gov.uk/NR/rdonlyres/EF688AB3-98EE-4234-B19...
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Permalink Reply by Paul Montpetit on
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Interesting Jack...I "learned" it the Fire way but have always done it facing the ladder....If I am heeling the ladder for someone and they have to take out a window I really don't want all that glass falling on my ass...regardless of protective gear...and by facing it I can keep track of my partner on the ladder....Just my look at it.....Paul
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Paul, et al,
When the logic is laid out (at least in my mind) there seems to be no good reason for footing a ladder beneath it. When I tell a probie I want them to foot facing the ladder I'm told, "That's not the way I was taught." Sigh.....
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Permalink Reply by WestPhilly on
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I believe one of the justifications for footing the ladder from the rear (and when doing so, you don't really "foot" it, do you?) is increased safety for the footer, the argument being that the ladder will afford at least some protection from falling objects. The large gaps between the rungs and rails lead me to believe that this protection is extremely limited. Far better to face the ladder - and the guy climbing it and the burning building he's climbing up to - and actually be able to see a potential hazard before it lands on your head. (Situational awareness, anyone?) How 'bout a live wire falling onto the ladder? If you're holding on to the ladder from the year with a death grip, then "death grip" might become more than just a figure of speech.
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Situational awareness, anyone?
Exactly. A phrase bandied about constantly yet often disregarded when 'footing' a ladder.
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Permalink Reply by Reg Mathis on
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Alright, here's some valid(IMO) reasons for heeling a ladder in from underneath/behind:
You have much more control over the ladder and can apply more force to holding it in place(basically your entire body weight) when heeling in from the back side. When heeling it in from the front, you are pretty much limited to just the strength in your arms and shoulders.
You are much safer from falling tools, etc when underneath. any falling tools or debris will hit ladder rungs before they hit you. This serves two purposes, to warn you that "something" is coming down, and to help deflect the falling object in directions away from your noggin.
If your assignment is to heel in the ladder, you don't NEED to see what the person climbing up or down is doing. You assignment is not to watch them climb, your assignment is to heel in the ladder.
And I've been working off of ladders for 25 years(satellite dish installation) so I have a little experience.
TCSS
Reg
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Reg,
I won't deny the logicality of your arguments but (there's always a butt, pun intended):
1. If the ground surface is slippery the force of the ladder moving away from the building will slide you along with it You have no traction to resist, either). By facing the ladder, one can either put their feet against the ladder pads -which will help resist the slipping action- or one could stand on the bottom rung -putting more downward force on the ladder.
2. As for being safer, by facing the ladder you can see objects as they start to fall (tools, glass, firefighter) and dodge (if necessary) while still keeping a foot on the pad. Facing the ladder likewise increases (dramatically) the FF's situational awareness (thanks WP). Also, if the ladder happens to be positioned in front of a first floor window and FF's inside decide they need to make a fast exit, they may be blocked by the FF beneath the ladder and, whether pushed or moves voluntarily he is no longer 'footing' the ladder.
3. Assigned to foot a ladder may be a temporary assignment or more long term (depending on the situation and tasks being performed.) But in either case, being able to see what is going on is essential for everyone's safety and simply knowing when it is safe to walk away (see the video).
Reg, like I said, your arguments are logical, it's just a matter of which method may be more logical. Personally I have a lot of experience with ladders and I find (and trade most people in the building trade would agree) that facing the ladder is the best method. IMHO
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Hey jack,
Your points are extremely valid, but they are exceptions to the "run-of-the-mill" assignment to heel in a ladder. Anyway, here's my reBUTTal!
On slippery(assuming muddy?) surfaces, by heeling in from behind, your weight is directing the force on the ladder downward, further anchoring the heel of the ladder into the ground. And because your fulcrum point(your body) is closer to the bottom of the ladder, I believe it would take more than the weight of one fully loaded FF to move the ladder at all.
Your second scenario is a distinct possibility, but again, I believe it would be an unusual exception to the rule.
On your third point, even if you heel in from the front, you should never look up to watch anyone ascend or descend the ladder. This is due to falling debris(little stuff) glass bits and the like from falling in to your eyes from their boots.
I truly believe that the reasons many people still heel in from the front is it seems to be the most logical way, and also(perhaps) the old superstition about passing under a ladder.
But to prove a point, here is an experiment I encourage all of you to try. Throw a ladder and put a body on the roof. Have someone heel it in from the front and instruct them to do their best to prevent any ladder movement. Then have the person on the roof push or pull the ladder from side to side(I would recommend using a pike pole for safety). Then perform the same actions, but with your "heeler" working from behind the ladder. This experiment should reinforce my argument about heeling in from the back side being more stable.
In addition, an earlier poster mentioned the danger from falling glass if heeling a ladder from someone taking out a window while on the ladder. Whoever it was needs to go back and re-read the section on taking out windows. If the person heeling the ladder is directly under the window, then the person taking OUT the window is directly under the window...not the proper precedure for removing a window!
And another thing, if you DO decide to try my experiment, while your roof guy is up there, have him take a picture of the "heeler" both in front of, and behind the ladder. You'll might be suprised at the amount of coverage all those rungs and rails provide!
Okay, now I'm up to about 7.5 cents on THIS topic!
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