The Social Network & Community JUST for Firefighters
Roof Ops
This is something we need to be careful of. In some instances you may not have a choice, but putting water in the vented roof while on the roof is risky. Master streams, especially elevated if available and accessible would be ideal. But, again, we are limited by our resources.
Of course, if we are going to go this route, we must have a very good idea of how far this fire has traveled in the attic space. We certainly don't need firefighters on the roof if we are taking a defensive position.
In addition, safe roof operations would also dictate that we work off of a roof ladder. The pitch is not that steep, but the roof is wet and it is just safer and appropriate to work off of the roof ladder.
Keep putting 'em out and stay safe. Anyone see anything else I missed here?
Of course, if we are going to go this route, we must have a very good idea of how far this fire has traveled in the attic space. We certainly don't need firefighters on the roof if we are taking a defensive position.
In addition, safe roof operations would also dictate that we work off of a roof ladder. The pitch is not that steep, but the roof is wet and it is just safer and appropriate to work off of the roof ladder.
Keep putting 'em out and stay safe. Anyone see anything else I missed here?
Replies to This Discussion
-
Permalink Reply by Smoke Eater on
-
This house is now a lost cause. I see no reason to have a handline operating on the roof. Risk nothing to save nothing. At least they are on air.
TCSS Everyone!!!
-
Permalink Reply by Derek R. on
-
I agree, there is no reason to be up there at this point. Going by the picture, if you wanna put water up there, there is a big hole on the right that will accomodate a fire stream.
-
Permalink Reply by John Crabbe on
-
I don't agree with putting water through a roof vent at all. The fire is venting, releasing heat, smoke, and gases, pushing all that back down a vent hole means it just goes back inside and defeating the purpose of a vent. A better tactic may be to pull some ceiling and direct streams into the attic from beneath.
-
Permalink Reply by Jeff Cole on
-
The best choice takes guts and discipline. Forget dumping any water through roof holes, they ARE vent points. If you cannot get under the fire, and open it up to hit it, and opening the roof for an interior attack has not resulted in confinment and control, then simply let the roof burn off. You won't be wasting thousands of gallons of water that do nothing to contain, or extinguish the fire, and instead create waist-high puddles. It's simple: If the water streams do not hit the fire directly, or get disbursed through deflection, it isn't working, period.
Let the roof burn until you have a shot at hitting the actual fire, and you'll waste less water.
Other than that, what sense DOES it make to place firefighters above the fire, on a damaged, weakened roof with questionable support structure, for a building that is a total loss, and nothing will change that?
Sometimes we opertae in the danger mode just becouse we want to perpetuate the notion that the job is dangerous, and we take risks.
And I am FAR from being considered a member of the over-safety police.
-
Permalink Reply by Mike Schlags (Captain Busy) Retd on
-
"Master streams, especially elevated if available and accessible would be ideal."
As a homeowner and 30+ year veteran, having a fire department make the decision to go completely defensive here would really be a WTF? situation. To use a master stream as the fall back tactic means that the structure was a complete loss and no one was willing to do an interior attack, pushing the fire from the involved to the uninvolved.
This structure appears to have what appears to be drapes hanging in the front room which tells me that the structure still has somethings inside worth saving... In my world, I have always tried to do everything possible to minimize property loss for the folks I protect. I really don't think that it is a lost cause at all but this is difficult to say from the above photo. Master stream appliances are cool for exposure protection and for large commercial fires but in my opinion would be complete OVERKILL in this situation.
CBz
-
Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on
-
Let's push the fire back down into the house where it belongs, right?
-
Permalink Reply by Jason Hoevelmann on
-
My post mentioned the master streams, not necessarily as the primary attack, but it appears that they are attacking the fire from the exterior, therefore, instead of putting people on a roof with fire underneath it during defensive efforts, use something unmanned.
Not being there, but using the picture for illustrative purposes, it may be an option to make a protected interior stance from a safe location?
But, thanks for the feedback. It is fun to hear how different everyone sees things.
-
-
Jason, I was actually replying to Capt. Busy's response, but it fits your thoughts as well.
I can still remember my first exposure to Al Brunacini, circa 1985 and his quote "Roofs are stupid. They shed ladder pipe water just like it was rain."
Apparently, roofs shed hand line water the same way, right up to the point where you drive the fire back down through the building.
I've seen a 3-story balloon frame with an isolated cockloft fire from a lighting strike burn to the ground because two ladder pipes were the initial attack.
I've also participated and commanded horizontal ladder pipe transitional attacks that have saved 50% involved SFD fires, too. I guess that was just the old truckie in me
-
Permalink Reply by FETC on
-
Not to bash any department in specific but what are they doing? One guy has a line and the other has a STIHL chainsaw. So I guess that huge hole wasn't big enough???
They are on one side of a pitched roof which has fire most likely underneath them so their stream is not going to extinguish the entire attic fire. This tactic is why we see firefighters fall into structures from the roof. These type of LODD's are easily preventable. And if they didn't fall through the roof, what possibly justified the risk based decision making?
This is a residential ranch, type V wood frame with a common attic. Due to the era of the structure it is not lightweight truss construction otherwise they would have already fallen into the fire. But this is setting up the firefighters to say, well hey we did this once before....
What are we saving in this fire... the damage on the front is clearly a fire within the occupancy that had extended through the ceiling, then throughout the attic and ultimately through the roof supports, plywood and shingling. Hmmm that means we had a pretty significant fire in multiple points of the structure, therefore most everything is ruined to heat, smoke, fire and water damage.
Just this week we had firefighters seriously burned from a fall through a roof of a garage fire.
-
Permalink Reply by Michael C. Harrison on
-
It appears that the roof ops are finished (fire venting from the roof, either thru a cut hole, or a burned thru one)
I have no clue what those people on the roof are doing besides trying to assist with burning the house down.
-
Permalink Reply by Lou Sclafani on
-
Great pic. Makes you say WTF?
OK- You can't be on top of a wood roof that has already burned through. There is no reason for it...period.
Makes no difference if it is lightweight or conventional. This is just a bad tactic.
Using elevated master streams on a residential fire like this is another WTF moment, unless you are so minimally staffed you can't man some bigger hoselines from the ground. If that's the case you should look into purchasing a RAM from Elkhart or a Mercury nozzle from Akron. These mini master streams put out up to 500 gpm without much manpower.
Now, let's talk about large commercial buildings.
If fire is through the roof on one of those babies it is self vented. No need for more people on the roof. As long as you are still in the offensive mode, no water through the vent hole.
Once the IC has decided to go defensive AND everyone is removed from the building it really isn't a vent hole anymore. It's really an access point for elevated master streams. At that point, flow away.
I think I might use this picture in my ventilation class. No one would believe me if I told them about it.
-
-
I've some more where that came from. Thanks for the reply.
© 2024 Created by Firefighter Nation WebChief.
Powered by
