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2nd Alarm or Not, That is the Question
I noticed that on alot of senerio's people are quickly calling from 2nd alarms. And I noticed that I read about a house fire going to 3 alarms. In our county (New Castle, DE) most alarms are 2-1-1. Working alarms brings a RIT unit which is usually the 3rd due engine. Each additional alarm brings 2-1-1. Which means the 2nd due rescue could be responding from a distance.
My thoughts on 2nd alarms. For years we had issues with officers piecemealing a 2nd alarm. By that I mean I need another engine. I need a rescue, give me a ladder, etc etc. Some felt that by pulling the trigger people would feel that they paniced or at least over reacted. Over the last couple of years more and more officers are calling the "duece" as the young'n like to call it.
As an officer you have to understand what you need and why you need it. Take a vollie company has a house fire at 8am in a hydranted development. First engine goes on location with fire showing. They have another engine from mutual aid on the road. What do they need and why? A 2nd alarm, an additional engine, ladder or rescue. Our enignes are capaable of running at least 6 lines. So another engine...no. Is there extension or ventalion issues so maybe a ladder? Need more manpower so maybe a rescue? How about just a ladder and resuce. Call for an engine cover so one is on the road.
I thing I would love to hear is someone call for a 2nd alarm for manpower and FF's respond oin Van's since apparatus is needed. I've seen many a fire when 10-15 units are parked somewhere and the FF's at the scene.
But remember you need to understand what you need and why you need it before you call it
My thoughts on 2nd alarms. For years we had issues with officers piecemealing a 2nd alarm. By that I mean I need another engine. I need a rescue, give me a ladder, etc etc. Some felt that by pulling the trigger people would feel that they paniced or at least over reacted. Over the last couple of years more and more officers are calling the "duece" as the young'n like to call it.
As an officer you have to understand what you need and why you need it. Take a vollie company has a house fire at 8am in a hydranted development. First engine goes on location with fire showing. They have another engine from mutual aid on the road. What do they need and why? A 2nd alarm, an additional engine, ladder or rescue. Our enignes are capaable of running at least 6 lines. So another engine...no. Is there extension or ventalion issues so maybe a ladder? Need more manpower so maybe a rescue? How about just a ladder and resuce. Call for an engine cover so one is on the road.
I thing I would love to hear is someone call for a 2nd alarm for manpower and FF's respond oin Van's since apparatus is needed. I've seen many a fire when 10-15 units are parked somewhere and the FF's at the scene.
But remember you need to understand what you need and why you need it before you call it
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on
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Larry, that was exactly my point. There is no blanket way to determine when it is appropriate to throw a deuce on top of a box alarm.
There are just too many variables: career/volly/combination, geographical isolation or surrounded by help, station density, population density, construction types and sizes, water supply, fire size and spread, weather...
The only blanket we can throw accurately here is to say "If you think you might need the help, get it rolling."
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Permalink Reply by Jeff Cole on
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Well, even though an engine MIGHT be able to pump 6 lines, and maybe the fire only requires three...do you REALLY want to reliy on that one engine for everything? Where is your fail-safe?
However probabaly the number one rule for an IC is DON'T PLAY CATCH-UP! ALWAYS keep a couple of companies in staging when working a job. All it takes is for something to throw off your game plan, and if your needed resources are 10 minutes away, they are of no value to you NOW, and by the time they get there, you are probabaly going to need twice as many more companies.
You need to understand what you mAY need, and how readily available is it? Take a large metropolitan city for example, in a response to a rather small block row house. Four engines and two trucks, with four on each, plus a bc and driver, and maybe a DC...why is the first alarm so heavy? It's all to get ahead of the fire!
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Permalink Reply by Capt./Chaplain Mike Petrosky on
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Good ? Craig. When we ( Paid on Call, with M-F 4 out of 5 stations staffed from 7a-5p ) get a Structure in the day M-F, that brings 13 people ( 4 Engines and Chiefs ) and whoever shows from the On Call side plus 1 engine automatic mutual aid. If we pull one during the night, we get 5 Engines, 1 Tanker-if rural, non hydranted, 2 Rescues, 3 Brush trucks and 1 Automatic Mutual Aid Engine/Tanker. That is a pretty good start to a structure fire. Now if we get there and we need more we can request a particular piece or pull a complete 2nd. Personnally I would rather have more and cancel or redirect them later, instead of needing and not having. So, what I would say-do a 360 walk around and give a decent BIR and get to work and make the best well-rounded decisions with the info at hand. My .02-Stay safe, Stay low, and God Bless. Mike.
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Permalink Reply by Daniel H Skelton on
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on my volly dept the 1st alarm is for the in town units, a 2nd alarm is called when the frist unit is on sceen and has a working fire. and if a dept call's for manpower we will roll our engine with a full crew of 5 just becouse it's a lot quicker then haveing to race back to the station to grab a engine. example last summer we got called to the next town over to help with a missing person search we rolled with 5 on our primary engine, and on our way back to the barn we were toned out for a mva. now if your a chief try explaning to the home owner 'sorry your house burned down because we were in a van that had no water nor equpment"
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Permalink Reply by FETC on
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Well Craig, you and I are not seeing eye to eye on this subject...
6 lines off a single engine? I get the fact that many can pump the hell out of a truck but OK what if the engine craps out or that individual hydrant fails?
Next... on piece mailing alarms or banging a duece?
I teach that you need to project 20 minutes ahead of the curve. That curve includes many unforeseen factors, like where is the fire going, are we getting it? What is the turn out time of career or a vollie town, whats their travel time back to the station and then over the road response times to our scene. This varies dramatically in different towns and communities. When you have a physical indication that we need more help.... you are most likely twenty minutes late!
Then in the process of delivering my, Managing the Mayday program, we discuss heavily how long would it take for the next piece or two pieces, on the second or third alarm to ACTUALLY arrive at the scene of a job wth a brother caught in a bad way? Most departments strike the next greater alarm when the mayday occurs, to increase manpower and assist the initial RIT company, again probably twenty minutes late! You end up managing "make shift" companies that are already tired, may or may not have taken a blow yet, and potentially are operating less than 100%.
So I put the next greater alarm into Level II staging when I am holding my own, this affords myself control of the factors said above. People don't like it, tough, but I feel like I operate much safer. Once the fire is under control, great, I ran a decent fire, no maydays... I have been known to cut the first due loose, to get them warmed up, fed, and let the companies in staging get dirty with some of the overhaul and take up.
Why in this day and age of heart attacks leading the LODD chart, do we still beat up of own and make the first in... be last out, with the most work? Then only to feel like crap for days due to overexertion, and stress? Nothing like helping the brother have a heart attack...
But like I said, we are on different pages as far as calling for help.
TCSS
FETC
www.fetcservices.com
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Permalink Reply by Tony P on
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I think we agree that it's better to get the troops on the move earlier rather than later? With enough pumping equipment of course!.. It's easier to turn people back if not needed, and much better than calling for help, with whatever method you use, when everything has already gone pear-shaped.
Does it really matter what system of calling for help is used? I don't think so, we would all probably be happiest with the system we are used to. In my state we have, as Lutan mentioned earlier, two fire rescue services. One uses the alarm system , the other uses the 'call for what you want' system. I prefer the latter - having seen an earial turn up to a structure fire where there is poor water supplier and no access at all for such a vehicle... See what I mean? It depends on what you're used to :)
FETC, I was going to ask you by PM but can't. Could you explain your use of 'MAYDAY' please? I'm probably just confused by how I'm reading what you've written.
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Permalink Reply by Paul Montpetit on
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Well, this can be a touchy situation....Here we run rural which means we have to carry and haul our water...we very seldom have the luxury of hooking a hydrant...and most times when we call for more resources it is a tanker and engine with manpower......we have to be specific in what we ask for...there are some departments that if you ask for Equipment and manpower...you get 1 vehicle and 1 operator....that's it......Haven't seen a confirmes structure fire that help wasn't needed or appreciated....
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Tony,
No problem, we use the term Mayday, Mayday, Mayday radio traffic to the incident commander, to report a firefighter is in trouble. The word, mayday through a radio communication policy is the highest communication priority, to let everyone know the person saying the words is in trouble. If someone uses mayday, the only people talking on that radio frequency should be the firefighter in trouble and the incident commander, so they can determine the severity of the situation, all other radios remain silent.
We do use the wording, "Priority Traffic" as well but that is used for when you want your communication to be priority over other regular radio transmissions. Like "Command from Safety Officer, Priority Traffic, I am concerned the roof is going to collapse."
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FETC....we also use "mayday, Mayday, Mayday"...all radio traffic ceases,The IC and Firefighter in trouble are the only 2 communicating...Firefighter uses "LUNAR" and gives this information to the IC....Then we go get him/her....all priorities at this point is rescue the man down....Problem I see sometimes is that the person in trouble is afraid to call "Mayday" figuring that he will be less macho or whatever....best to call early if needed before air supply is a major concern....Heck, can always cancel it if not needed......
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one thing to add is if your calling to early (before your on sceen) is a drangres habbit to get in to. no one likes to to get toned out at 2am to get half way there and get turned around only because its a false alarm. i say drangres because if the same town keeps calling for the 2nd when its not needed noones gonna respond the same way ie taking there time to the station. we had a town near us who for the longest time call for the 2nd on posible structur fires i mean of corse the home owner is going to say his house is on fire when he thinks he smells smoke, soo after this happens a couple dosen times noonne is going to take the dept seriously their for putting everone in danger. im writeing this from my phone its a little slow so sorry if its hard to understand
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Yes, it was my reading :) It seemed that a 'MAYDAY' was linked to the calling for extra vehicles. As I said, just my reading of it :)
MAYDAY MAYDAY MAYDAY - the accepted international call when there is immediate danger to life. As with you, if a MAYDAY comes over, we are required to stay off of that frequency.
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Paul - your system is similar to us in that you know what you need, and you call for it. You would know your neighbours and their area, if they make a call for help you're likely to understand what they need. With us, as we train people through the different levels we can easily have people with perhaps basic wildfire only, not structural, on a truck. At the request of the OiC a couple of weeks ago I requested help and included 'BA wearers required', which told the called brigade what we really needed and not to send unqualified members.
Daniel - typing from a mobile phone can be a real bugger! I use an iPhone (with a proper keyboard) and it still has me saying some strange things! No matter, I understood. The problem of calling people and cancelling them? Yes, it can easily be a problem if used too often without need. We would call for help before getting on scene if we could see (for instance) a large collumn of dark smoke, or even flame. This of course indicates that yes, we have a going fire... Probably more common with wildfire than structure fires to be calling early, we really don't want a bushfire getting away from us if we can at all stop it!
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