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Police rushing into the fire...glory hounds, ultimate freelancers, or what?
We all know what cops and firefighters have in common....both want to be firefighters. But at what point is it too much?
First of all, this is not to bash cops or the jobs they do, and many cops have had some great saves prior to the FD arriving. In my city, the cops somehow get dispatched to calls prior to us getting the calls, there is some stupid delay in dispatch, but that aside yes, PD do go into buildings and since they are out and about can get on scene sooner. About a month ago there was a fire where two PD officer did make some good saves and did risk their life and had a positive outcome.....Problem is I believe the coverage on these officers has turned others into glory hounds.
Here is what happened yesterday. Fire tones go off for a structure fire and a report of people still inside. This was a house in our downtown area and very close run for 2 stations. As I was pulling out of the station a cop car goes flying past the intersection...well above 60 mph in a 35 zone (discussion for another day). We made our response and maybe a few minutes from toned out to on scene. The first in pump and battalion chief arrived seconds before we did. The first in pump went in, encountered high heat in the hallway, we set up positive pressure attack. Fire was extinguished quickly and as visibilty increased the crew found a person in the bed...obvious DOA. From a fire standpoint goes, it was a room and contents, confined to the room of orgin...great stop and this was the shortest on scene time we ever had for a fatal fire.
Problem is, 2 police officers went rushing in and had to get treated for smoke inhalation. While I can see their efforts if they are on scene for awhile but we literally were pulling up on the scene when they went in. They rushed in maybe 30 seconds before we were on scene...meanwhile our 5" LDH was run over because the street wasn't closed down. (charged LDH BTW)
See the thing is, we don't rush into a domestic disturbance, altercations, weapons calls, stabbings, shootings etc until the scene was secured. In this case the cops rush in and no gun, taser, vest, cuffs or baton is going to protect you from smoke, heat and flames, this scene was not safe for them to go in, but 2 officers rushed in literally seconds before FD arrived on scene. Problem is one day we will be pulling a cop out of a fire because they just rushed in.
So at what point do you say enough is enough? We have brought this issue up before and was addressed, but since a few good saves, there seems to be more undue risk from the PD. So I know many have similar types of experiences, would you address this stuff or just let it go?Is it worth it?
First of all, this is not to bash cops or the jobs they do, and many cops have had some great saves prior to the FD arriving. In my city, the cops somehow get dispatched to calls prior to us getting the calls, there is some stupid delay in dispatch, but that aside yes, PD do go into buildings and since they are out and about can get on scene sooner. About a month ago there was a fire where two PD officer did make some good saves and did risk their life and had a positive outcome.....Problem is I believe the coverage on these officers has turned others into glory hounds.
Here is what happened yesterday. Fire tones go off for a structure fire and a report of people still inside. This was a house in our downtown area and very close run for 2 stations. As I was pulling out of the station a cop car goes flying past the intersection...well above 60 mph in a 35 zone (discussion for another day). We made our response and maybe a few minutes from toned out to on scene. The first in pump and battalion chief arrived seconds before we did. The first in pump went in, encountered high heat in the hallway, we set up positive pressure attack. Fire was extinguished quickly and as visibilty increased the crew found a person in the bed...obvious DOA. From a fire standpoint goes, it was a room and contents, confined to the room of orgin...great stop and this was the shortest on scene time we ever had for a fatal fire.
Problem is, 2 police officers went rushing in and had to get treated for smoke inhalation. While I can see their efforts if they are on scene for awhile but we literally were pulling up on the scene when they went in. They rushed in maybe 30 seconds before we were on scene...meanwhile our 5" LDH was run over because the street wasn't closed down. (charged LDH BTW)
See the thing is, we don't rush into a domestic disturbance, altercations, weapons calls, stabbings, shootings etc until the scene was secured. In this case the cops rush in and no gun, taser, vest, cuffs or baton is going to protect you from smoke, heat and flames, this scene was not safe for them to go in, but 2 officers rushed in literally seconds before FD arrived on scene. Problem is one day we will be pulling a cop out of a fire because they just rushed in.
So at what point do you say enough is enough? We have brought this issue up before and was addressed, but since a few good saves, there seems to be more undue risk from the PD. So I know many have similar types of experiences, would you address this stuff or just let it go?Is it worth it?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by lutan1 on
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So if you were really concerned with the safety of the PD, you could have easily used a less inflaming title and asked a simple question such as, "How do we educate the local PD to the dangers of entering a burning building? We're concerned about their safety but they don't seem to understand" or similar.
Instead, you've got the whole cop vs. FF discussion inflamed again.
I give up, I unsubscribe from this discussion- it's has nothing to with safety and you obviously have your view on the situation that won't change...
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Permalink Reply by John Crabbe on
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The response to this was buried in the other pages, but Monday, this subject was brought up to the fire chief (also a former police chief) and he stated they would be talking with the cops about this, so on that side of things it is being addressed. I did mention this was addressed before in the past and we did see some improvements, but after a couple officers were recognized for their efforts, we did start seeing officers taking undue chances again. Hopefully this talk will solve the issue at hand.
As for an immediate life threat, I could pull the flip side over and say I could see a victim with a stabbing or gunshot wound and is an immediate life threat, yet I'm going to wait until the scene is safe, my life is just as, if not more important, but if I rushed in to save that life...there wouldn't be the same sentiment going on. That is the point, it isn't that these guys were going to try and save a life, the issue is they took unneeded risks because the FD was pulling on scene as they rushed in.
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Permalink Reply by Stephanie kerber on
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haha thats some of the funniest shit ive ever heard! haha i want to be a cop but i aint stupid to go into a burning buliding with out a oxogen tank. Because i am a fire explorer so i know how fire deptarments works but thats funny lol
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I was just thinking the same thing damnthing.
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The issue at hand is such issues have been addressed before in the past...as I have pointed out. Secondly I mentioned about a couple other cops being recognized for similar actions in the past ...also as previously mentioned.
Also as mentioned, we stage for such calls as shootings, stabbings, altercations etc..we don't rush in....and as mentioned several times...the cops here rushed in as the FD was pulling up on scene. Yes, that is a huge safety issue...the cops WERE educated in the past but have been doing this more and more since their fellow officers were recognized....unlike you, I view this as glory hounding, because there is absolutely NO reason for them to rush in given the circumstances. Hence also the reason for the title, because in this case obviously the education the PD received before wasn't enough. What is a better way to get the example through? talking to them or showing the results of such actions?
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Permalink Reply by Bryan Goustos on
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The stripe down their pant leg is the HOT Line.
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Permalink Reply by Julie Williams on
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Nope.
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Permalink Reply by James Hawk on
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cop-a-logical meter is what we call it. procedure is as follows:
park 500 ft. upwind of scene. wait 15 minutes. if cop is still alive and standing, proceed 250 ft. wait 15 minutes. if cop is still standing, proceed 150 ft. wait 10 minutes. if cop is still standing, proceed 50 ft. don SCBA. wait 5 minutes. respond to scene. it is probably not as hazardous as dispatched.
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Permalink Reply by Tony P on
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"the FD was a block or so away from the incident when the cops went rushing in"
and
"the FD was pulling on scene as they rushed in"
Which one? I don't see a "block or so" and "on scene" as being the same thing. If the "block or so" is the accurate one, then quite possibly the cop didn't know just how close the the FD was. Was the cop taking an unwarranted risk? Perhaps, but was he hurt? Perhaps he has more knowledge of fire than we suspect?
Would I go in to a structure without PPE etc to try a snatch rescue? I hope I would - though if the building was going from end to end I can't see it happening.
I had stayed away from this thread because of the title. I think a cop V. ff thread is about the same value as a career v. vol thread - that is no value at all. Threads with inflamatory titles interest me as much as threads about lights on POVs and what I have in my pockets - not at all. A hint from a friend sent me here; I'm glad to see that most posts have been positive.
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Permalink Reply by Spanner 122 on
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After many conversations with police and paramedics (we are not combined fire/ems here), it is mostly an issue of lack of cross training. People in emergency services are involved for a sole purpose, and it isn't to hand out tickets or stand by and watch. Unfortunately, you're right they should not rush in, potentially giving us more work to do, but put yourself in that situation. Perhaps you would hope you could if you happened to be walking by. If they were neighbours, they would be hailed as heros (had they been successful). Yes, they should know better, but adrenalin and the desire to help tends to take over at times.
We have more of an issue sometimes with paramedics at mvc's. It's not because they think they can do a better job at getting to the patient, or that they aren't intelligent enough not to put their face in front of an air bag that still has the capacity to be deployed after the fact... its the training.
They don't want to be told how to do their jobs of course, as we don't, but the next time you go trapsing through a crime scene remember the training you received in that... lol... I know mine was about this long, "don't walk through a crime scene".
Emergency services would likely have a better relationship if we stopped ragging on each other.
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Sorry Julie, I just had to point out that you are speaking of spelling without paying attention to your own grammar. lol!! ;)
As for explorer groups. I have some thoughts on them as well. I don't like that they respond to calls, but I have to say, I have met some of these kids, young ladies as a matter of fact and was nothing less than pleasantly surprised! Knowing these kids will have a little knowledge behind them when they are old enough to apply is incredible and may just some day save their lives. Now.... keep them from responding before they are 18 and I'll be happy!!
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Permalink Reply by Holly on
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Quite a few cops in our area are FF or have been so I haven't really seen many incidents when the end didn't justify the means. Not saying that it's right for a cop to run into a burning building but if he/she has some knowledge of fire behavior and can help more power to them. I think that having some knowledge is the key.
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