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Debate 2: Figure 8 Descenders Have No Place in Rescue
After misreading the original debate on these forums about the use of the Figure 8 KNOT, I wanted to really get a controversial debate and discussion going about the use of the Figure 8 DESCENDER in rescue.
I for one, will never advocate or promte the use of the Figure 8 for any part of a rope rescue, wheter it be as a descender, belay device, etc.
Here's my reasons, not in any order-
1) No safety mechanism- The Figure 8 has no single or double stop mechanism
2) Human Factor 1- The Figure 8 relies on the rescue having at least one hand on the rope at all times. In a a "lost footing" situation or similar, the rescue can let go of the rope to catch themselves, resulting in a fall
3) Human Factor 2- Two different ways to reeve it. Depending on what way you're taught, you can come up from the bottom or from on top of the device (Does that makes sense?) THis can result in larks heading the device if the unit/rope gets caught on an edge. This in turn can lock up the descender leaving the rescuer stranded.
4) Multiple lock offs- The device can be locked off multiple ways- again they all have different pro's and con's. THis can create confusion to members that may be used to one way, and then having to be taught another way, etc.
5) Load ratings- Again, depending on the type and brand used, there's a load of different load ratings. Again, adds to the confusion.
6) Hands off test- One of the tests we do here when training is to blow the whistle. Every member of the team should be able to take their hands off everything and no one should be able to move or be in danger. With a figure 8, you let you, you fall.
7) Casualty/Rescue safety- If the casualty is combattant (spelling?) or panics, they can put both them and the rescuer in danger by knocking them, etc.
8) Friction- The unit heats up very quickly and is really only best suited to short rappels.
9) Human Factor 3- The unit reuqires the operator to control the speed/friction by hand. This can be too hard to control in a rescue situation.
10) Human Factor 4- Load it up with a rescue and a casulty and you've just increased the isuses around controlling the device and the friction.
For me, I'll take a double stop descender any day over an 8. Recreationally I use the 8 for quick small jumps, but that's it.
Now I know this is going to be controversial, so let's hear your thoughts, but be nice about it!!!!!
I for one, will never advocate or promte the use of the Figure 8 for any part of a rope rescue, wheter it be as a descender, belay device, etc.
Here's my reasons, not in any order-
1) No safety mechanism- The Figure 8 has no single or double stop mechanism
2) Human Factor 1- The Figure 8 relies on the rescue having at least one hand on the rope at all times. In a a "lost footing" situation or similar, the rescue can let go of the rope to catch themselves, resulting in a fall
3) Human Factor 2- Two different ways to reeve it. Depending on what way you're taught, you can come up from the bottom or from on top of the device (Does that makes sense?) THis can result in larks heading the device if the unit/rope gets caught on an edge. This in turn can lock up the descender leaving the rescuer stranded.
4) Multiple lock offs- The device can be locked off multiple ways- again they all have different pro's and con's. THis can create confusion to members that may be used to one way, and then having to be taught another way, etc.
5) Load ratings- Again, depending on the type and brand used, there's a load of different load ratings. Again, adds to the confusion.
6) Hands off test- One of the tests we do here when training is to blow the whistle. Every member of the team should be able to take their hands off everything and no one should be able to move or be in danger. With a figure 8, you let you, you fall.
7) Casualty/Rescue safety- If the casualty is combattant (spelling?) or panics, they can put both them and the rescuer in danger by knocking them, etc.
8) Friction- The unit heats up very quickly and is really only best suited to short rappels.
9) Human Factor 3- The unit reuqires the operator to control the speed/friction by hand. This can be too hard to control in a rescue situation.
10) Human Factor 4- Load it up with a rescue and a casulty and you've just increased the isuses around controlling the device and the friction.
For me, I'll take a double stop descender any day over an 8. Recreationally I use the 8 for quick small jumps, but that's it.
Now I know this is going to be controversial, so let's hear your thoughts, but be nice about it!!!!!
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Dustin Liddell on
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Hi, my name is dustin. I completely agree with your thoughts on not using an 8. My dept uses mainly repell racks and brake bar racks, but I have seen a Rescue 8, Its the same as an 8 except it has two ears that come off the top and allow you to tie off. I still like the racks better because I think you can controll them safer. but I have seen a Rescue 8 used!
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Permalink Reply by lutan1 on
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Racks are great for control and so on, but again, they're not a single or double stop device. They rely on friction and ultimately the resucer to control them and lock them off.
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I should add that there's loads of others out there- these happen to be my personal choice ones...
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If you are using the rack for a lowering device from up top, then you should always have a safety, like a prusik so that like you were talking about, if you let go, it stops when the prusik catches it. We also like to drill so that any time you call it, everybody can let go of what they have and everything should stop, but if you are using the rack for a decending device (on you) then your right, there is no safety if you were to let go, but that is why you have a belay rope attatched to you, it will stop you if somthing happens.
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Permalink Reply by Jason Brooks on
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8s are for recreational use only. They have no place in rope rescue at all. And, if you ever get the unfortunate chance to rappel on a rope that has been used by guys with 8s, enjoy the ride. The 8s put a nice twist in the rope that will cause you to spin as you rappel, makes for an interesting trip. Most of us in the states use double rope techniques, so a double stop device is not a concern either. Most of the SWAT teams use the Petzl Stop, they use single ropes. The Petzl Stop is not rated for 1/2" (13mm for Lutan) rope. It will only go up to 7/16" (11mm).
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Now twin rope- there's another debate that's ripe to have!!!!
You're spot on with the twising though... -
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NFPA=over engineered systems. We don't need to debate this one.
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Permalink Reply by Ironhorse on
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It depends on what you are trying to accomplish, as long as you opperate within the load limits of the equipement you are using. And you are proficient in the systems and equipement you use. That being said, I don't have a problem using an 8 for single person loads such as rapping to a patient. We always use a 2 rope system, with the belay being your fail safe. On our belay we use a catch device such as a Petzl 540, or tandem prussik. Either one of these will pass the whistle test. Now if we have a two man load such as a patient in a stokes with a tender we will use a rack for the main line and either of the two belay systems. In any case keep it as simple as possible, it is very easy to get bogged down in redundant system on top of redundant system.
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Permalink Reply by Jim on
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I couldn't agree more! Also repelling is fun, but it is a sport. Why do so many folks feel like they need to repell, when they have a team to support from above. HANDS FREE! It's a no brainer.
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Permalink Reply by Chris Burke on
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Am I assmong that you have 2 ropes side by side for this?
Ever used the G rated Id 20? We use these (great piece of kit) Lower the rescuer, so they are hands free, and then you can build a haul system around it. You guys don't use single rope do you???
Chris -
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We are in the process of doing testing with the I'd in our area. So far it is getting rave reviews. However, we have a major league rope guru in our area that will do some quantitative testing for us as well. Our SWAT guys use the Petzl Stop, but it can only go up to 7/16" (11mm). It's really funny to watch them try t go donw 1/2" (13mm) ropes, and not know why it is so hard. As far as two ropes, yes to your question. One is the main line and one is a belay.
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