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Firemen Going to Medical Calls that are not Medically Trained!
On my department a lot of our calls are medical calls and we've got 15-20 fireman that are medical trained for this reason and the ambulance will call use when they need assistance. But we get quite a few fireman that show up that are not trained at all, they might have cpr but thats it. Nobody seems to care about this that we've got untrained people trying to help out at medical calls. My question is, is this even legal and what would happen if it would ever go to court and what can be done to try to stop it. I just dont want a lawsuit and the other fireman are like it'll never happen, maybe I'm over reacting here I dont know.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Dustin J. Millis on
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Most of your state provided mandatory firefighter training contains a section on very basic EMS. Therefore; after passing mandatory, you should be good to go on med calls. My dept. does require all ff's at least be CPR and AED certified but thats all they need to run on med calls.
Say we get a med call and two guys show up that arent EMT's... they have to wait for at least one EMT before they can roll. About half the guys on my dept are EMT B's or medics though so thats usually not a problem.
As far as the legality of your ff's getting in trouble if something happened. Your dept. has to be certified for a medical provider license, which is provided by whatever local hospital your dept. works under. Its kinda hard to explain but that hospitals EMS director "allows" all of you to respond to EMS calls under the "direction" of his personal medical license. As long as he says that your ff's can go... its his ass in trouble, not yours
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Permalink Reply by Paul Montpetit on
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If you have an ambulance on scene and your Firefighters are there for assisstance then the extra help in lifting and being a general "Go-Fur" (Go for this or go for that) can be of some help.....As long as there are trained people to run the scene then what I see are some extra hands that can come in quite handy when carrying equipment or a litter....You really don't need much training to carry a stretcher or a stair chair or when loading a patient into the back of the rig....don't ever complain about help.....I learned that a very long time ago.....Stay safe....Keep the Faith.....Paul
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Permalink Reply by john houghton on
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Our dept. is only firefighting. we do get called for mutual aid in our district sometimes for lift assistance. We only help the EMTs and that seems to workout fine.
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Permalink Reply by Jake Fireman on
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WOW Not good to have those on scene not medically trained to work on a patient. However, they can drive the rig, work traffic/pedestrian control. etc etc etc...Extar hands to move patient...
ALmost everywhere around here, firefighters, whether it be volunteer of professional MUST be EMT's. We have had a few who have been "expired" EMT's try to get away with it but we have caught them.
In my early days we had an assistant chief who had let her EMT certificate expire. She worked on numerous EMS calls until she got caught, was then fired.
really not worth it.
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You are right in being concerned. First of all if a fireman that was not medical trained was first on scene to a medical call how would that look to the patient or the patients family when the fireman could do nothing to treat this patient? Our department had this happen! Not to mention when you have personell show up on the scene that are not medical trained it becomes a problem because then you have apparatus and people in the way of the ambulance and the emt's that are trying to respond. Our department put in a policy that a firefighter can not respond to a medical unless there is a emt enroute to the call. I am not against a firefighter wanting to help on a medical. They can be a extra pair of hands or they can help with lifting assistance. But when you have a handful that show up it becomes a problem.
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Permalink Reply by Cody W. Nelson on
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What exactly are the untrained medical personnel doing? If they are just helping with lifting of moving the patient, there shouldn't even be an issue. If they are untrained and starting IVs and pushing drugs, etc; then that' a huge problem. I work for a full time FD and with a full time EMS that responds with vols. If I know that they can take a blood pressure and a pulse, I'm okay with that. I wouldn't ever let them do an invasive skill though. I would be interested in what exactly they are doing on the scene. You don't have to carry a medical certification to respond and assist. You have to have one to treat and transport.
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Permalink Reply by Mick Shelley on
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If you are not trained, you should not be there, unless you are in training then I would say that
it should be alright
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If you called for them they have a legal reason to be there,if theres just one EMT then they can help treat the Pt, if no one hs medical training the they can fetch things or help move strecher or the pt.
my old dept could only run to a medical scene as long as a EMT was on the truck, but our command officers are EMTs so they could request a truck without one.
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If EMS and fire are seperate departments doesn't the fire have to have a medical director and follow and participate in all the rules and regs of the state EMS requirements? If they do not then aren't FF who are responding to amb pages already out of thier scope? Just because you are a licensed First responder or EMT doesn't mean you respond to ambulance pages?
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Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on
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Cindy,
In many states, EMT-Bs have a state scope of practice and don't require local medical control.
Even if fire and EMS are seperate agencies, if the local system uses fire first responders, then not only does it make sense for fire to respond to EMS calls, it's designed that way.
The problem discussed here is that if none of the firefighters have medical training, why are the responding to the calls in the first place? If you're going to run medical calls, then you need medical certification and training, regardless of the agency that sponsors you or the vehicle type that responds to the calls.
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Permalink Reply by Timothy D. Stone Jr on
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We had this problem to. We set up rules that if you are not 1st Responder or above, you must wait till a 1st Responder or above or the ALS unit get on scene before you can go in. But now we dont have to worrie about that it is in our rules of joining the Dept that you must become 1st responder or above within 1 year of becoming a member.
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Permalink Reply by Erick Wendler on
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T.J. been reading some of the replies that you have recieved on your topic and also agree that it should be covered in the good samaritan law,but I also understand where you are coming from we also have a few of those fireman on my department on the volunteer side. We usually try to send 2 EMT's with one firefighter (the firefighter to help with the stretch as far as loading and unloading) but sometimes it does not work out that way. You end up with 2 EMT's and 4 firefighters and they just seem to get in the way espeacially when you have 2 EMT's and the 2 Medics arrive on scene. I don't think that this problem will ever get solved until departments but in there SOG's/SOP's how many are to respond to the call on the rig.
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