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Who should be in charge of the apparatus while responding to the scene?
This topic comes up when I am assigned to engineer. I believe that the engineer should have the say what goes on inside the cab while the vehicle is in motion. My reason is if your involve in a wreck who is going to be sited. In a case that happen in a county next to mine a quint responding code 3 T-Boned a car a killed the occupants inside. The driver tried in court for the deaths, and the local media covered the story only on the driver. My understanding is that the officer riding in the appropriate seat was not charged or any actions taken. Only internal. With this accident speed was a factor and responding to a general alarm drop. Looking for opinions on this and if some dept's have SOG's on the topic.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Mike Schlags (Captain Busy) Retd on
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If the engineer has an accident, they are totally responsible for the wellfare and safety of their crew. With that said, the company officer is in charge but delegates the responsibility for driving to the engineer. If there is a problem, it's the company officer job to handle it.
As a Fire Captain, there are three basic rules to follow:
1. Don't tell the engineer how to drive.
2. Don't tell the cook how to cook.
3. If it can't be delegated, then don't do it...
TCSS, Mike
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Permalink Reply by John Malcom on
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I agree on the two cents; it has been tried in court. You explination goes in circles. When it comes to the driving, the person that is driving is in charge of that driving and NO ONE else. I dont care what the officer says or does; if the driver feels it is an unsafe or unlawful act the driver does not and should not follow the officer's directions. The officer can be held accountable in a civil suit, but in the criminal action the driver takes the hit not the officer. If your driver follows what the officer says and it was wrong then that driver is an idiot and should not be driving. People getting caught up in the moment; again I agree...and I cant tell you how many officers I have seen get caught up in the situation and get tunnel vision. Just becasue there is a bugle or bugles does not mean that they are smarter or have more knowledge.
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Permalink Reply by Hugh on
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Heres my question and I know all these years the officer was in charge but if the operater gets charged legally than wouldn't common sense be telling everyone that it is the operater that is in charge while the engine is going to a call or anytime the truck leaves that station legally by law so it sounds like the Captain or officer in charge is in charge untill a higher officer arrives on the scene and the Captain is in charge of the station.
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But the operater is in charge of the truck to a call and on the way back to the station or anytime the truck leaves the station.
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You’re talking purely semantics. In the end the driver is in charge of that vehicle and the occupants of that vehicle. And will be held accountable. The CO as you call them is in charge at the call and the courts have upheld that. I have watched engineers refuse to pull out of the station because the moron office would not put on his safety belt. The engineer was correct and IN CHARGE.
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Permalink Reply by Christopher Gilbert on
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The Driver Operator is ultimately responsible for the operation of the unit they are driving and all persons onboard. The Officer is in charge of the personnel, and to ensure the apparatus arrives safely at the appropriate address of said call. If the Drivers field of vision was being blocked and they were approaching an intersection, the operator is required to slow or stop the unit if they are unable to verify and ensure safe passage through the intersection. The Officer was definitely violating SOP and HTA if dressing while vehicle was in motion. The Driver should have also advised the Officer that they were obstructing the operators visibility, as they were obviously also blocked the sideview mirror as well as the window.
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Permalink Reply by Joey "BigShow" De Piano on
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The Driver is pretty much the one who can say whats going on in the cab as far as behavior , noise, when to go or stop..but like with anything the driver needs to be policed as well exactly for the reason you stated Tboning a car at excessive speeds..The officer should have and more so today would have been taken down as well in that situation..for not controlling his crew i.e. the driver SOG's are nice tool but the LAW states stop at all lights stop signs and obey traffic signals and posted speeds..sure we all cheat but there is a line to not cross we are driving the equivalent of a tank and only difference they stop faster..and won't flip and kill us inside...
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Permalink Reply by Robert Nichols on
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I am a Engineer and I know that I am the one responsible for the safty of my crew. My Captain knows that I am not hell bent on having to be the first truck on scene.My job is to get everyone there safely and not become an incident ourselfs.It does no one any good to hurt someone else or hurt one of your brothers. Driving 10 miles over posted speed limit is a good speed and a safe operating one. When coming up on an intersection I begin to slow down if the light is even green.This is do that the light could change on you and this increases the stopping distance too incase someone runs a red light in front of you.Lets all be safe out there and make sure that Everyone go's home!!!!!
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Permalink Reply by Brad Straty on
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The engineer is in control of the truck, But it should be a joint responibility between the officer and the engineer. Here's the example, I was the fire officer to a vehicle fire with reports of people trapped. Roads were icy and i was pushing my engieer of the pumper to speed up. He advised me that he was driving the vehicle to his ability and the road conditions. Which later when i re-evaluated relized that he was in the right. better to get there 5 minutes later then not get there at all. Consider that the fire officer has to answer for the actions of the rig as well.
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Permalink Reply by JPB on
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The Driver is responsible, an officer in the other seat cannot control drivers ability/emotions/reactions, the officer is however accountable for the driver as well as who trained him to drive..
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Permalink Reply by Gentlegiant on
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The Engineer of the apparatus should have total control of the vehicle. All passengers should remain seated and safety belts in place. If you need to continue to get dressed including SCBA, remain seated until the apparatus has come to a complete stop and the E-brake has been applied. Then you may continue getting dressed and exit the apparatus. Come on people the Engineer is to have controll of the vehicle at all times. The Officer should be listening to radio transmissions advising the Engineer of any unforeseen traffic hazards and incoming orders such as placement, hitting a hydrant etc.
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Permalink Reply by Jeremy Steele on
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Although the Officer can give direction, it is the responsibilty of the driver/engineer to ensure safe vehicle operation and that traffic laws/SOP's are being followed, and you are responding in a safe and responsible manner. If the Officer or any other person is blocking your view, not wearing a seat belt, or distracting you from safely operating the vehicle, it is up to you to tell that person(s) to buckle up, sit down, or knock off the distractions. And if you cant see an intersection or have a clear view around your vehicle, stop the vehicle until you do. If the Officer or crew have a problem with those actions it is something that can and should be addressed back at the station.
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