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IAFF president slams Calif. 'stay-and-defend' plan
From Firerescue1
http://www.firerescue1.com/fire-news/449011-iaff-president-slams-ca...
LOS ANGELES — If stay-and-defend is the best idea California's fire chiefs can come up with to do a better job containing the state's wildfires, my frustration is exceeded only by my concern for the state's residents. Stay-and-defend — outlined in several Times news articles, most recently in the Jan. 13 story, "Southern California fire chiefs debate stay-and-defend program" — should make people run and hide.
Exploring new ideas to protect Californians from the state's increasing number of wildfires is commendable, but stay-and-defend would be a failure. The program includes asking homeowners to pretend that a government education course on fire risk would provide them sufficient training to protect themselves and their property during a wildfire, thereby requiring fewer professional firefighters to be deployed.
Hearing anyone suggest that homeowners should not get out of harm's way is appalling. Hearing a public safety professional make the suggestion is shameless. Stay-and-defend is clearly a half-baked idea from people who believe that saving money is more important than saving lives.
Further reading is available at the LA Times
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oew-schaitberger23-2009jan23...
Hearing anyone suggest that homeowners should not get out of harm's way is appalling. Hearing a public safety professional make the suggestion is shameless. Stay-and-defend is clearly a half-baked idea from people who believe that saving money is more important than saving lives.
Stay-and-defend has had limited success in the Australian bush, where the tactic has been used for some time. But it has also led to disaster, and the homesteader program would not translate to a state as populous as California.
I'm not sure where they're getting their information from, but the stay and defend programs in Australia are far from being a disaster.
Most fatalities are not from the stay and defend- they're from people blindly trying to escape after it's too late and have been caught in firestorms or blindign smoke and crashing their vehicles.
The Australian public is being very clearly taught basic principles that they can adopt to make their home safer (Block downpipes and fill gutters with water, blocking doors, radiant heat safety, etc, etc).
They're also being taught (very clearly and loudly!) that just because you call 000 (Same as the USA 911 system), will not guarantee a big red truck arriving.
They're being taught to evalauate their safety and make an early decision to evacuate or to stay and defend.
Here's a link to some of the information being made available to the public:
http://www.cfa.vic.gov.au/residents/index.htm
Feel free to check it out and make your own, informed decision....
http://www.firerescue1.com/fire-news/449011-iaff-president-slams-ca...
LOS ANGELES — If stay-and-defend is the best idea California's fire chiefs can come up with to do a better job containing the state's wildfires, my frustration is exceeded only by my concern for the state's residents. Stay-and-defend — outlined in several Times news articles, most recently in the Jan. 13 story, "Southern California fire chiefs debate stay-and-defend program" — should make people run and hide.
Exploring new ideas to protect Californians from the state's increasing number of wildfires is commendable, but stay-and-defend would be a failure. The program includes asking homeowners to pretend that a government education course on fire risk would provide them sufficient training to protect themselves and their property during a wildfire, thereby requiring fewer professional firefighters to be deployed.
Hearing anyone suggest that homeowners should not get out of harm's way is appalling. Hearing a public safety professional make the suggestion is shameless. Stay-and-defend is clearly a half-baked idea from people who believe that saving money is more important than saving lives.
Further reading is available at the LA Times
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oew-schaitberger23-2009jan23...
Hearing anyone suggest that homeowners should not get out of harm's way is appalling. Hearing a public safety professional make the suggestion is shameless. Stay-and-defend is clearly a half-baked idea from people who believe that saving money is more important than saving lives.
Stay-and-defend has had limited success in the Australian bush, where the tactic has been used for some time. But it has also led to disaster, and the homesteader program would not translate to a state as populous as California.
I'm not sure where they're getting their information from, but the stay and defend programs in Australia are far from being a disaster.
Most fatalities are not from the stay and defend- they're from people blindly trying to escape after it's too late and have been caught in firestorms or blindign smoke and crashing their vehicles.
The Australian public is being very clearly taught basic principles that they can adopt to make their home safer (Block downpipes and fill gutters with water, blocking doors, radiant heat safety, etc, etc).
They're also being taught (very clearly and loudly!) that just because you call 000 (Same as the USA 911 system), will not guarantee a big red truck arriving.
They're being taught to evalauate their safety and make an early decision to evacuate or to stay and defend.
Here's a link to some of the information being made available to the public:
http://www.cfa.vic.gov.au/residents/index.htm
Feel free to check it out and make your own, informed decision....
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by lutan1 on
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We've had some big inquests- search "Linton Fires" or similar.
The CFA lost a whole crew on a fire in the Linton area- a lot of changes came about.
They also lost 2 crews in Ash Wednesday back in the 80's.
My point being, yes we had inquests, yes we had changes but I've not heard of charges. Not sure that our laws would allow it.
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Permalink Reply by Nicola Slade on
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Stay and defend can be useful particularly if the home / property is well set up to do so.
New South Wales Fire Brigade and Rural Fire Service have plenty of material available on what is needed.
However as Victoria has just proven sometimes it is just not an option.
I think the big picture has shown in such an extreme situation neither was an option. in this case the fire was way to fast to even decide whwhat people were going to do some people only had minutes before the flames overtook their homes.
TV interviews are showing some people saying the sky got dark with smoke and the fire was on them.
it really was in gods hands as to who and what survived.
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Permalink Reply by Shannon Pieper, FireRescue Magazine on
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Just read (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/10/world/asia/10australia.html?hp) that the Australian PM has called for a review of Stay and Defend. What's your read on that? Do you think it will stand up to scrutiny? I know the policy will be a big shift for SoCal residents, but I also think we (I live in San Diego) must start taking responsibility for living and building where we do. I don't agree that it will lead to more deaths, ff or citizens--as long as we carry it out extremely carefully and using what's worked in Australia and discarding what hasn't worked.
Also, do you think people are more independent in Australia and therefore better equipped for Stay and Defend? Sometimes people here seem way too eager to blame their troubles on someone else and complain that help doesn't come fast enough.
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Permalink Reply by Jake Fireman on
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To all my brothers and sisters "down under" Be safe...may God be with you...You are all in our thoughts and prayers. Fi's World...If you are out there BE SAFE!
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Permalink Reply by Irons38 on
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I was hoping to read better posts on the topic at hand, then read posts from fellow "brother" firefighters pashing career union firefighters. One persons opinion doesn't reflect the thoughts and opinions of all other union/career firefighters across the US/Canada (international).
Wether career or volunteer we all could do better working together and coming up with a plan that would help not only the customers we serve, but our fellow brothers and sisters. Don't make this a debate on career vs volunteer, it wont get us anywhere!!!!!!!!!!
(Just a side note, I am a career union firefighter and president of my local.)
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Thanks Capt!
Some advice to all- check your contents insurance- my brother discovered he's way under-insured!!!!
Unfortunately he found out the hard way.... :-(
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I was hoping to read better posts on the topic at hand, then read posts from fellow "brother" firefighters pashing career union firefighters.
Have I missed something again?
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Permalink Reply by Aussie_Wildfire on
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Ask your insurance company to come and value your home. I did 2 years before my fire. 1 mile of fences were quoted at $19,000 to remove and replace, by the only guy that would quote. he came back 3 days later with a smile (cost price $2,700)
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where did he spring from lutan, a (president of my local) that does not read. God help them
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Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on
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This is a partially exposed dome. The measuring stick is 0.5 meters long.
Dome interior - underground propane cylinder.
Here is a similar dome with the cylinder completely buried. They cylinder is now under .25 meters of dirt, except for the valves and guages inside the dome.
This is what an underground propane cylinder looks like incompletely installed. Note the distance between the dome top and the cylinder top.
Ben
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Thomas,
You've made that claim a number of times, but you haven't shown a single piece of evidence to support your claim.
Stay and Defend has never been shown to contribute to a single firefighter LODD, as far as I know.
If you're going to keep making that claim, how about showing us some supporting evidence?
Thanks,
Ben
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Since the Aussie FFN members are currently experiencing what have been called the "worst wildfires in the history of the world", and this topic is on "Stay and Defend" during wildfires, it seems to me that they know what they are talking about. Other than one comment questioning if the IAFF is really "international", I haven't heard the Aussies bashing anything that an American has said.
They've had some excellent points about their current wildfire problem. Those comments are not about "every fire related topic in every place", they're exactly on topic for this discussion. It makes sense to listen to them.
Ben
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