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Who should be in charge of the apparatus while responding to the scene?
This topic comes up when I am assigned to engineer. I believe that the engineer should have the say what goes on inside the cab while the vehicle is in motion. My reason is if your involve in a wreck who is going to be sited. In a case that happen in a county next to mine a quint responding code 3 T-Boned a car a killed the occupants inside. The driver tried in court for the deaths, and the local media covered the story only on the driver. My understanding is that the officer riding in the appropriate seat was not charged or any actions taken. Only internal. With this accident speed was a factor and responding to a general alarm drop. Looking for opinions on this and if some dept's have SOG's on the topic.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Dennis Brown on
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The officer is in charge of the men and the engineer is in charge of the truck he has to worry about everything thats gose on and the saftey of everybody while operation the truck this is why there is head set for crew now so the officer can give orders while the engineer drives and keeps his mind on other things
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Permalink Reply by Will on
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5mph over the limit and you must stop and use caution before proceeding thru a Red Light.
Does anyone remember what happened in Detroit with the two engines colliding.
I think it all starts with common sence.
Stafe safe out there
M D
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Permalink Reply by Chief 29 on
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My feeling is that the driver should and as far as I am concerned be in charge of the apparatus while in motion. Of course you all are thinking "what about chain 0f command?" My answer is simple; On the scene the safety officer has the ability to override IC so think of the driver as your SO in the truck. Of course if the officer feels the driver is going to fast or not obeying traffic laws he shall step in and order the driver to correct him/herself.
While driving your pov you are responsible for everything that goes on inside that vehicle, it should be no different in an emergency vehicle. If you can't handle the responsibility than don't get behind the wheel!
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Permalink Reply by Christopher J. Naum, SFPE on
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The company officer or acting co. officer performing supervisory oversight by verture of rank, has authority and managerial oversight and responsibilities for the crew, it's conduct and in the operations of the apparatus- The CO is in charge. The engineer (driver) is responsible for the actual performance (operations) of the apparatus (of which that performance should be bound by dept. SOP and training). State laws and statutes, as well as case law would direct causal blame in the event of an incident. There are lots of recent examples of driver accountability ( criminal actions) that hold the driver clearly accountable for their actions or for their dereliction). In simple terms; CO is responsible, the Drive is accountable.
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Permalink Reply by Lou Angeli on
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I agree that the driver is clearly accountable for the operation of the apparatus from the time he/she comes on duty, until he's been relieved or released. Enroute to the scene, the officer is responsible for the crew -- including the driver -- and their activities. However, in many volunteer departments, the officer may respond in his/her POV and the front seat of the apparatus could easily be occupied by a wannabee. You know, the probie who yearns to talk on the radio and trigger the Federal Q. (You guys know who I mean)
Another thought. if you're apparatus is involved in an accident, in which civilians are killed or injured, a seasoned attorney would likely name the driver, officer, department, board of directors and the apparatus manufacturer in the suit, depending on your state's statute of limitations.
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Permalink Reply by Asst. Chief Bigshow on
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I could be wrong, but I believe in all depts. the driver/engineer is responsible for the apparatus enroute to the scene. However the Officers are responsible for making sure those that the drive the apparatus are properly trained. If an accident happens involving an apparatus with another vehicle, and it is the fire trucks fault, the driver had better be trained. Cause not only will the driver be charged the Chief will be charged also for negligence. At least that the way we do it. In our dept. if your not trained or on the insurance to drive the trucks you don't drive. Plain and simple.
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Permalink Reply by Dave on
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My Department rules and regulations are,If you are driving,your responsible for that truck.Anyone can sit in the captain seat(passenger front)we have had people hit signs and almost rip the doors right off the truck,He was responsible,If you wreck,and its your fault,Why in the world would you charge anyone else in the vehicle,Unless they did something to cause the accident??If you were driving your own car,and wrecked would you want your wife to get blamed? The only thing I may see is where are your sirens and radio??Your Caption seat or whatever you call it,Should be in command of the Radio,Air Horn,Sirens,Map books,Hazmat tools....Your crew in the rear should be getting geared up,and the only thing we do is someone takes charge of the team,meaning,Try to set orders so no one is doing the samething when you arrive on scene.But I dont think anyone but the driver is responsible.
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Permalink Reply by Kirk D. Baughman on
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it should be the officer of the apparatus and the driver. they both should be talking to each other the hole time. as all of us know code-3 is aways danagers. plus it depends on SOG's.
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Permalink Reply by Jeff Teeters on
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I agree with your theory to a certain extent. However, the problems arise because most Firefighters do not see Engineers as officers. This being said, Firefighters are less likely to respond to the Engineer when he/she tells them not to do something. THIS is where the responsibility rests on the Officer' s shoulders. It is up to the officer to put his/her foot down and back up the Engineer. So yes, technically the Engineer should be in charge, but the officer must have enough authority and common sense to stand behind his/her Engineer.
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Permalink Reply by Brad on
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This is a easy one. The engineer on the truck is the one in charge tell that truck is on scene. I have set in the officer seat for many years. I tell all my engineer new and old that once that truck pulls out of the bay it is all them I will tell them where the closest water supply his and the easy route.
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Permalink Reply by Lt. Ballinger on
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On our dept. it is the driver who controls the apparatus. The officer is worried about listening to the radio, relaying pertinent info to the driver and crew, extra set of eyes and making sure the intersection is clear to the right. The driver drives and that is all he does. As an officer I have had drivers I felt were driving to fast for conditions or recklessly. All I can do is tell them to slow down. I can't physically slow the truck down. I have pulled a driver from driving once on scene and made him ride in the back on the way back to quarters and wouldn't let him drive for a month. The driver is the one in control of the truck but the officer is the one ultimatley responsible because I signed my name on the line saying he is a qualified driver of the apparatus.
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Permalink Reply by Jessica on
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I believe the driver should be responsible for the apparatus while responding. No one else can steer, accelerate, or brake but them. It's not a drivers training car where the passenger can take over and drive the rig. The officer can only make sure they are going the right way and find out where they need to go once on scene. The officer is in charge of the radio for a reason- imagine trying to drive and operate the radio every time the trucks called out. Not easy in high traffic situations. If the officer is distracting the driver, not checking his side at intersections, or obstructing the drivers view, then it's up to the driver to stand up and tell him to shut up and get out of his way. ;)
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