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Pipin' Hot First Due..30 Minutes or Less
Pipin' Hot First Due..30 Minutes or Less
You're taking in Box 4527 for a reported structure fire at a vacant pizza shop. You have a number of reports coming in, reporting large volumes of smoke in the vicinity of the interstate. You have a two and one response along with the Battalion Chief on the initial alarm.
Upon your arrival, you observe the first due Engine Company has just arrived and is starting their 360.
Heavy smoke is evident along the Alpha side (A) and some fire from the Charlie side (C).
Traffic conditions along the highway (Alpha side (A) is heavy. The same is true along the parallel highway on the Charlie side (C). The hydrant was picked up by the first-due engine company as they approached the scene coming up from the Bravo direction of travel (300’ feet).
You are aware that this area has been prone to vandalism by area youths and you observe three bicycles laying in front of the building, BUT no kids around. A civilian who was driving by reports to you he observed one youth running at the same time he observed the smoke pouring out of the building. You transmit a working structure fire…..
What’s your incident action plan (IAP)?
What are your strategic considerations?
How do you expect the building to perform?
Is this building Vacant, Unoccupied, Occupied, Abandoned…?
What kinds of challenges do you have?
What are the safety issues?
What resources are needed?
What conflicting Risk Management Profiles do you have?
More importantly….how much time do you have to get mission critical assignments made and carried out?
Remember…thirty minutes or less, now get to work…
You're taking in Box 4527 for a reported structure fire at a vacant pizza shop. You have a number of reports coming in, reporting large volumes of smoke in the vicinity of the interstate. You have a two and one response along with the Battalion Chief on the initial alarm.
Upon your arrival, you observe the first due Engine Company has just arrived and is starting their 360.
Heavy smoke is evident along the Alpha side (A) and some fire from the Charlie side (C).
Traffic conditions along the highway (Alpha side (A) is heavy. The same is true along the parallel highway on the Charlie side (C). The hydrant was picked up by the first-due engine company as they approached the scene coming up from the Bravo direction of travel (300’ feet).
You are aware that this area has been prone to vandalism by area youths and you observe three bicycles laying in front of the building, BUT no kids around. A civilian who was driving by reports to you he observed one youth running at the same time he observed the smoke pouring out of the building. You transmit a working structure fire…..
What’s your incident action plan (IAP)?
What are your strategic considerations?
How do you expect the building to perform?
Is this building Vacant, Unoccupied, Occupied, Abandoned…?
What kinds of challenges do you have?
What are the safety issues?
What resources are needed?
What conflicting Risk Management Profiles do you have?
More importantly….how much time do you have to get mission critical assignments made and carried out?
Remember…thirty minutes or less, now get to work…
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Texas.pdf, 1.9 MB
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Christopher J. Naum, SFPE on
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Very nice reply and add.......coupled with the references..."Use your TIC from the windows and doorways, assure no squatters are squatting today eating year old crusty doe. But Nobody is going in. Remember Texas??? Early morning / Golden Arches? Godspeed brothers.
If you're not aware of what FETC is referencing look at; http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/fire/reports/face200013.html
SUMMARY: On February 14, 2000, a 44-year-old male and a 30-year-old female, both career fire fighters, died in a(n) (unoccupied) restaurant fire. - Attachments:
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Texas.pdf, 1.9 MB
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Permalink Reply by Engineco913 on
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I would instantly upon arriving on scene transmit a second and 3rd alarm bringing me 2 additional ladders, 4 engines, more rescues, and more chief officers to the scene. Based on the smoke conditions I am gathering that we have very little time to make a tenable grab of any victims visible from the doors and windows. Pizza Hut's are built to be WIDE OPEN SPACES with no walls to slow down fire growth and developement. (either attic nor main dining area)Add the fact that the roofing is gsheet metal (holding the fire in more than a typical roofing system) the potential for the fire growth inside will be intense with little ventilation from the attic area. (yes I see the fire is through the roof but thats only one small section)
I'm noting high tension lines on Side A but due to the height and distance from the building they are not totally a major priority other than for my Truck companies to note the location of. The air conditioning unit on the rear of the building is going to be a collapse issue in little time under fire conditions. Being a pizza shop the area of the kitchen is going to have very dry framing due to the elevated temperatures. (try wood=kindling)
The only victims we would have a shot of removing would be within eyesight of the TIC from the exterior.
Risk little to save little, risk a lot to save a lot, risk nothing to save nothing. No confirmed sight=no entry, period. It's a tough decision to make for any command level personnel. Without a confirmed sighting, we would be making a dangerous gamble on a abandoned business where people may not be inside at all. With the fire appearing as though it's pushing towards the A/d corner from side C due to the wind in the photo we have very little time to do much. Estimated time before flashover based on the smoke to make a rescue I would guess to be 3 minutes or less.
The roofing system would be lucky to last 15 minutes under fire conditons before it collapsed and once this happens (due to the hip styleof roof and lightweight construction) wall collapses are not uncommon.
Someone else mentioned calling Domino's for delivery because this is going to be a while. I agree in the "going to be a while" statement but Domino's?
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Permalink Reply by Marques Bush on
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Chris you just arent right! Engineco913 you are right no Dominos Definitely Papa Johns.
I tend to agree with Jason get in with a TIC make the search Quick and Dirty and if it turns up negative then right it off. i truly feel it is that simple.
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Marques,
Have you been in a Pizza Hut?
The area is wide open. The only area not being able to be seen from the exterior with a TIC would be the Kitchen area. (which in this case is a massive fireball)
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/66/190496868_f2db8454ee.jpg
These buildings were "cookie cutter" constructed. The newer ones have more charector and different features. Based on the lack of the "pizza hut" logo and words on the roof area, this baby's been abandoned for at least a year which means she should be relatively empty of the contents
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I don't really remember the layout of the pizza huts too much and I do understand what your saying. What I'm saying is get in and get out, we aren't hanging around to have a beer or pillow talk. From the training I have TIC don't do to good looking through glass and what if the kids have set up little forts or something inside like kids do. Just food for thought. I also want to state our safety is first priority but we still have to see if there are kids in there given the circumstances.
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Thats a fair assesment. I was basing my decision to use the TIC from outside on the observation of the windows being removed by a wanna-be truckie as Chris stated in an earlier reply. The fort was one I wasn't thinking of but will be there from now on in my thought process.
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i didnt think about the windows being busted out but again with kids we must assume that they are using this for a playhouse. Please someone take a belt to this wanna be truckie. Damn pumper monkeys LOL!
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Permalink Reply by FETC on
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Marques,
If your response is delayed; by either the lack of forced notification, caller reports fire through the roof (like the picture) remember this business is CLOSED, or if your paid, combination or volunteer department has an 8 minute response target coupled with the lack of forced notification, this combined burn time leads to a roof/hvac collapse upon your intitial entry. The get in and get a dirty search on is dangerous.... sorry, as you stated..... but nothing is that simple.
Where I work this is a 3-4 minute response, 4 man engine first due and in the exact scenario, no entry with the pre-arrival headstart. Call me a pansy but that is policy.
The double LODD in the Texas McDonalds was a paid department and first due unit. Unfortunately a HVAC roof collapse trapped them inside the building.
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FETC I respect your decision and agree fully you should follow your policy, we just see things a little differently but that is the great thing about these training forums you can learn from each other and agree to disagree. I don't think you are a pansy just doing your job. I personally feel a quick primary could be done safely. what if those kids were right inside the door? Where are most victims found? Just my train of thought but I am here to learn just as you are. I look forward to reading the other responses
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I did a little research since my last post since this kind of fire would garner a little attention. Heres a photo for you to ponder.
Based on the photo I believe this is the one we are dealing with. (wish I had seen this before I posted lol)
You enter to make a search, your dead. Notice the rear of the roof is collapsed?
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Decisions and actions plans are made based upon the information at hand, your experience and your assumptions. As many of you were beginning to expand upon, given that fact that there might be kids in the structure, an interior operation of some duration would be made. I think we were beginning to see different perspectives on risk assessment, fire suppression tactics and assumptions on viable “time elements”. I had hoped to play this scenario out further, however the most recent photo posting shows what the next five minutes of the operation brought forth.
Unfortunately, the spoiler photo that was posted provides an obvious understanding of what was very evident by the smoke conditions I was referring to earlier.
The lesson here is read the conditions; understand the building, its construction and its stage of existence. Look at the risk profiles and the on-scene indicators, determine what needs to be done and have a firm basis for conducting those operations- with a clear understanding of the time continuum and how and what will impact your companies, their safety and survivability should you commit to interior operations. Sometimes faulted action plans and tactics can have dire consequences....
I’m posting some additional photos above as the incident unfolded- all within a very short time span.
The question is; “What would you be doing right now, IF you had committed a company inside, when the interior flashed over and began its collapse sequence?”…
I'll get a new scenario up.....
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Let me add this one additional photo for some open discussion.....what are your thoughts?
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