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Pipin' Hot First Due..30 Minutes or Less
Pipin' Hot First Due..30 Minutes or Less
You're taking in Box 4527 for a reported structure fire at a vacant pizza shop. You have a number of reports coming in, reporting large volumes of smoke in the vicinity of the interstate. You have a two and one response along with the Battalion Chief on the initial alarm.
Upon your arrival, you observe the first due Engine Company has just arrived and is starting their 360.
Heavy smoke is evident along the Alpha side (A) and some fire from the Charlie side (C).
Traffic conditions along the highway (Alpha side (A) is heavy. The same is true along the parallel highway on the Charlie side (C). The hydrant was picked up by the first-due engine company as they approached the scene coming up from the Bravo direction of travel (300’ feet).
You are aware that this area has been prone to vandalism by area youths and you observe three bicycles laying in front of the building, BUT no kids around. A civilian who was driving by reports to you he observed one youth running at the same time he observed the smoke pouring out of the building. You transmit a working structure fire…..
What’s your incident action plan (IAP)?
What are your strategic considerations?
How do you expect the building to perform?
Is this building Vacant, Unoccupied, Occupied, Abandoned…?
What kinds of challenges do you have?
What are the safety issues?
What resources are needed?
What conflicting Risk Management Profiles do you have?
More importantly….how much time do you have to get mission critical assignments made and carried out?
Remember…thirty minutes or less, now get to work…
You're taking in Box 4527 for a reported structure fire at a vacant pizza shop. You have a number of reports coming in, reporting large volumes of smoke in the vicinity of the interstate. You have a two and one response along with the Battalion Chief on the initial alarm.
Upon your arrival, you observe the first due Engine Company has just arrived and is starting their 360.
Heavy smoke is evident along the Alpha side (A) and some fire from the Charlie side (C).
Traffic conditions along the highway (Alpha side (A) is heavy. The same is true along the parallel highway on the Charlie side (C). The hydrant was picked up by the first-due engine company as they approached the scene coming up from the Bravo direction of travel (300’ feet).
You are aware that this area has been prone to vandalism by area youths and you observe three bicycles laying in front of the building, BUT no kids around. A civilian who was driving by reports to you he observed one youth running at the same time he observed the smoke pouring out of the building. You transmit a working structure fire…..
What’s your incident action plan (IAP)?
What are your strategic considerations?
How do you expect the building to perform?
Is this building Vacant, Unoccupied, Occupied, Abandoned…?
What kinds of challenges do you have?
What are the safety issues?
What resources are needed?
What conflicting Risk Management Profiles do you have?
More importantly….how much time do you have to get mission critical assignments made and carried out?
Remember…thirty minutes or less, now get to work…
- Attachments:
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Texas.pdf, 1.9 MB
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Marques Bush on
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Hey I feel even worse
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Permalink Reply by Engineco913 on
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sorry for the spoiler photo. This proves the walls being bowed out and the roof being totally gone that a search wasn't going to happen. This fire had disaster written all over it from the first photo of smoke you posted
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Chris what was the time table for this collapse
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The news articles surround the fire are all different. Some say it collapsed after the fire was out. (not possible, I saw all the scene photo's and I assure you she was cranking when the roof collapsed) Based on the photo's, the department hadn't flowed any water yet and it started to collapse. My educated guess based on the photo timeline would be less than 8 minutes after arrival
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Permalink Reply by Trainer on
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Top picture you’ve already done some work, so not having that first look; if nothing shows signs of entry upon arrival, I’m not going to worry about the bikes. If I find signs of entry, vertical vent, TIC as FETC indicated, hopefully their under a booth. Cops to close road, surround and drown, we’ll call this urban renewal.
Papa Johns is out of the question it has a bad effect on our chief, and it ain’t heartburn.
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Permalink Reply by T.J. on
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There is no way I'd send a crew into a fire like the 1st photo, no way in hell!
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Permalink Reply by FETC on
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Sorry Chris but knowing these structures, and been there done that before within them, I can't answer your new update as I wouldn't have committed a company unless I could have actually seen the victim from the entry point with our TIC. The owners of all these establishments do not care if we suppress the fire or not, the corporate office has a policy it is cheaper to bulldoze these then renovate them.
Things to ponder. This fire is UNTENABLE for civilians and within seconds UNTENABLE for trained and ultimately protected firefighters... What are you going to save? It is a body recovery. Pizza Hut has no areas in which a kid could go, hide and escape the thermal insult or the deadly gases.
Therefore a blind search for a possible victim is overly aggressive... to the point that others in the fire service have done it and DIED.
People here need to learn from other previous dead brothers...
As I stated before... and you have indicated at 5 minutes but in reality that update is before the next company gets on scene THIS IS A BORN LOSER. NIST did a thermal dynamics simulation on the Golden Arches fire and the roof HVAC will collapse more often before many here on FFN arrive due to delayed notfication, turn out time and over the road travel. 8-10 minute rule - FROM THE TIME OF FIRST ATTIC EXPOSURE ON THE LIGHTWEIGHT TRUSS system.
Therefore for anyone who made entry to search, call back to the station and tell them to activate the LODD SOP.
Marques, thanks for agreeing I should follow my policy. I would have thought firefighter safety would prevail on the way you see things "a little bit differently" and your decision to search this vacant structure.
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FETC I based my decision on the fact of what I sawfron the first arriving photo,the photos and information progressed I am changing gears. I do understand everything your saying and pretty much agree with all except the fact that you wouldn't pop in at all. I at least feel get inside the doorway scan with a TIC. All though you may not think so safety is a major concern to me but it still doesn't excuse me from doing my job firefighting is inherently dangerous. Do I feel based off of the rest of the information provided that I would send a search crew in now absolutely not but I'm all about the scan with the TIC based off of the arrival photo. Maybe I am wrong as other firefighters are saying they wouldn't enter the structure either and I'm willing to except the fact I cant always be right. As for the 9 BRAVE MEN who died in my state that is in my mind more than you know!
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Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on
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Chris,
The risk profile conflict is the possible two junior arsonists inside vs. the lightweight construction in a well involved "No Value" building. (A very smart guy I know coined that term for these lightweight small restaurants.)
If the ventilation was done by firefighters, there's a very slim chance that the junior arsonists are still alive inside.
I'm having Truck 1 do a "peek and poke" by taking a long hook to the B doorway and lifting a ceiling tile with the hook.
If they can see fire in the truss void either with the naked eye or with the TIC, this fire is DEFENSIVE. If they can't see fire in the truss void, this one is still DEFENSIVE unless they can also see the kids nearby with the TIC. In that case, Truck 1 will make a quick grabus snatchus if they can, everyone bails, and we go DEFENSIVE and stay DEFENSIVE.
If the ventilation was from autoventing, this fire is so hot that anyone inside is dead, so it's DEFENSIVE in that case.
Due to the 360 horizontal ventilation, this fire is fuel-controlled. There's plenty of fuel here. I don't like the smoke, but it's not quite to the Black Fire stage, so we may be able to keep it from flashing if we can hit it quickly with lots of water. Two 2.5-inch lines with smoothbore tips directed into the overhead could buy the Truck a couple of minutes, but they're not going to extinguish the fire.
If there is any sign of impending structural collapse, this one goes immediately to Born Loser status and we're DEFENSIVE, regardless.
The rest of the safety considerations involve having the cops start looking for the kids or bystanders who may have seen them run out the other door, shutting down the street to avoid traffic hazards, and not operating opposing master streams when we start the inevitable surround and drown mode.
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Permalink Reply by Robert Owens on
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Even if we have a life safety issue this is still to dangerous to make a rescue due to the construction. The building is probably un sprinkled but even if it is it has obviously over run the system so its a MAJOR fire inside. The smoke also tells us that what is not on fire will be soon...its white color is merely time, distance or shielding from the origin of the fire. Lastly there is nothing to check the spread of this fire from front to back of the occupancy and it is clearly heavily involved in the kitchen area with the roof structure already compromised.
I would transmit a 2nd alarm and assign the truck companys to open the building up, force every door break every window. Take a peek in the doors and grab anyone within arms reach of the doors and windows.
The Engine companies are gonna deploy several 2 1/2 inch hand lines and fill the building up.
I would then have the Utility bring several extra drinks and snacks becuase we are gonna be here a while
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Permalink Reply by Christopher J. Naum, SFPE on
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Hey, let me refocus our attetion on something and redirect....based upon the most recent photo I posted with the two handlines working and the location of the two man team...is anyone concerned about the "potential" collapse zone...? I though someone would jump on this one...lets discuss safety issues affecting companies after the bulk of the fire is knocked down and now we're lossing sight of the situational awareness issues affecting safety....
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Chris we did get away from the other safety factors and that wall is primed for a 90 degree collapse
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