2 In, 2 Out- Clarification

I've always been taught (and have taught others) that the 2 in, 2 out rule is that if 2 go in, 2 must come out.

However if I'm reading correctly of late on these forums, there's actually variations to what 2 in, 2 out means.

What is to you? Where did it come from?

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Permalink Reply by Rescue601 on January 9, 2009 at 3:30pm

Straight from OSHA.

1910.134(g)(4)

Procedures for interior structural firefighting. In addition to the requirements set forth under paragraph (g)(3), in interior structural fires, the employer shall ensure that:

1910.134(g)(4)(i)

At least two employees enter the IDLH atmosphere and remain in visual or voice contact with one another at all times;

1910.134(g)(4)(ii)

At least two employees are located outside the IDLH atmosphere; and

1910.134(g)(4)(iii)

All employees engaged in interior structural firefighting use SCBAs.

Note 1 to paragraph (g): One of the two individuals located outside the IDLH atmosphere may be assigned to an additional role, such as incident commander in charge of the emergency or safety officer, so long as this individual is able to perform assistance or rescue activities without jeopardizing the safety or health of any firefighter working at the incident.

Note 2 to paragraph (g): Nothing in this section is meant to preclude firefighters from performing emergency rescue activities before an entire team has assembled.

Permalink Reply by lutan1 on January 9, 2009 at 3:56pm

Thanks guys for the info.

Being from Oz, we don't comply with NFPA or OSHA, so that might be why we do the 2 go in, 2 come out rule instead of what you have listed....

Permalink Reply by Rescue601 on January 9, 2009 at 4:01pm

Yeah, sometimes due to the size of the structure we send 3 or 4 people in and are only required to have 2 on standby. However, as the interior guys go through air at different rates we often swap people in and out. The key is that there is at least 2 on the inside and at least 2 on the outside.

We usually form a 4 man RIT team as soon as possible that is divided into two man teams. Thus we can more effectively manage any issues.

Permalink Reply by Trainer on January 9, 2009 at 4:01pm

2 in 2 out, 2 inside, 2 ready to go in, that was my take. After the last command class I had, the outside crew at least 1 should be packed, the other can be the oic.

Permalink Reply by lutan1 on January 9, 2009 at 5:47pm

A bit more digging brings up the following:

http://www.iaff.org/hs/PDF/2in2out.pdf

http://www.firefighterclosecalls.com/drills/FCC%20Vol%205-59%202-In...

http://www.osfc.state.pa.us/osfc/lib/osfc/2_in_-_2_out_Policy.pdf

Still not appliacble to us (in terms of the law as we're not U.S.), but some food for thought....

Permalink Reply by lutan1 on January 9, 2009 at 5:51pm

As I said, ours is more about maintaining a "buddy" system and maintaining communicaitons, contact, etc with each other

Permalink Reply by reece on January 9, 2009 at 6:16pm

the way i take it is, however many you have in, thats how many are outside ready to go. full ppe

Permalink Reply by Paul Montpetit on January 9, 2009 at 6:52pm

Many have this misconception...it means that if 2 go in then 2 are ready to go in if needed for assistance....Been around as long as I can remember....Paul

Permalink Reply by Tony P on January 9, 2009 at 8:57pm

And to clarify what lutan has said, 'Oz' isn't a state of the USA. So 'NFPA' and 'OSHA' have no relevance. We do have our own Occ Health & Safety laws of course. And they are laws, not standards or guidelines.

For internal firefighting, we usually have teams of two FF's. As soon as numbers arrive on-scene we try to have a crew standing by outside with BA donned but not started. Can't always happen unfortunately. And a difference to what has been stated above - when one member notices that his/her air pressure is getting low, then both come out and have a drink and a rest before fitting fresh tanks. We also work under the system of your low air warning shouldn't go off until you are outside the building, we train to keep an eye on our own air and on how long it will take to leave the structure. For us, waiting until the whistle blows means you have too little air left.

Permalink Reply by Tony P on January 9, 2009 at 9:05pm

Which misconception Paul? Do you mean the concept of equal numbers inside and outside?

Permalink Reply by lutan1 on January 9, 2009 at 9:15pm

I'm not sure it's a misconception- it's something I've been taught, and something I've passed on to others for years.

I'd never heard the other explanations till I got active on the FFN forums.

Permalink Reply by k hig on January 10, 2009 at 6:28am