Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Tom Ricotta on January 27, 2008 at 9:13pm

I am wondering the same. My company has issued each interior firefighter a rope and carabiner too. This was several years ago. From what i understand this meets the intent of the law. (I guess the jury is still out on exactly what the intent is.) Although this may put us into compliance, in my mind the rope we carry is too thick. And i think there is better systems out there. But what is the right system, and what is too much, and too difficult to use? I would like to my company with a better system, but what i don't know yet. And most importantly at what cost, and how are we to pay for them?
Firehouse.com, had an interview with FF Cool, who was injured on Black Sunday. He survived because he was carrying his own Escape system. He was asked what system he wold endorse, he wouldn't recommend any particular system, but he did have these recommendations.
Bailie Systems (rope and carabiner) don't work when you hands or the rope get wet.
The less steps the better. The simpler to use the easier it will be for the ff to use in a crisis situation.
Train on it. Like any other tool, it needs to be automatic, not something you have to think about.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Spanner 122 on January 28, 2008 at 5:32am

Darnit, I clicked on the link and lost my post... and there was nothing on the link.

I have also been wondering if the departments have begun to issue the PSS's. I was under the impression that it had to be a complete system, with harness and not simpy a rope and biner. Being automatic seems to be the key for sure.
NFPA standard for the rope size is 7.5mm or larger, which can seem heavy and cumbersom when combined with the entire system (hook, etc). From someone on my department who carries a complete system very similar to the ones used in New York, he feels they are heavy and that there would be a lot of pushback if we were told we had to wear them (some people don't like change or being told to do something even if it means if could save their lives... sigh). He is hoping there will be some advances made in the technology that would allow more and more people the ability to buy them, train on them and use them with little or no complaint. Unfortunately it's a bit of a niche market and not just any company is going to be willing to spend the time and money to research and develop this system. It's going to take some time that's for sure.

I would love to see pics of systems being used across the state of New York, if anyone has some. Thanks!

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Paul Montpetit on January 28, 2008 at 12:18pm

We have tried to look into this as well...BUT as is typical of assholes passing legislation on matters that they know nothing about no-one seems to know just what is required....Is it a rope bag with carabiners..? Is it an escape system...? How about an "instant elevator"...You know just push this and pull that and a ride down out of the structure magically appears....and the big question....if it requires a "system" then who pays for it..?? If you haven't read the law..you might find it amusing...it states "ALL FIREFIGHTERS" must have an escape device....Now does that include the exterior firefighters as well...??? Hmmmm...need a system to get out even if I AM out..?? Yes, typical.........Paul

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Tom Ricotta on January 28, 2008 at 10:51pm

I Think the intent of the law is a good one, but wording is about as easy to follow as this Reply. The biggest problems i see with it are:
1. It isn't really clear, as to who and what. NFPA 1983 doesn't define a "system" it really defines components, of systems, and equipment used for search and rescue and self rescue. It gives you requirements and testing criteria, on individual pieces, but not what defines a system.
B. The Bill was not well researched. I don't know if they truly understand who should be required to carry this and who should not. Also do they realize Volunteers are Unpaid employees? Regardless Fire can't tell the difference either.
Secondly. The Law is the Law. We will at some point in time be required to comply to it. That is if it doesn't get rescinded... But like Sean said, I wouldn't run out and buy something to comply. Let the Labor board hash it out and define what they see as a system. I would hate to see companies run out and spend a few hundred dollars on "systems" to find out that doesn't meet the law, or spend much more and be over the compliance. Of course going over board in safety usually isn't a bad thing, but i would hate to blow a budget on a system that is way over the top, and maybe too confusing for the Firefighters to operate in a shear panic....

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Mike Lewis on February 10, 2008 at 8:55pm

Okay, Ill open a can of worms here,,,but, its a different perspective. Let me start by saying Im all in favor of any pice of equipment that will save your ass if things go bad and my Department is still hashing out this whole rope law thing. I personally own and maintain my own rope, carabinner and harness. I have trained with my system and been a part of numerous bailout evolutions. I consider myself fortunate to own this equipment and to be competent in using it.
Heres where this laws gets interesting, particularly in a Volunteer Department, like my own. I cant help but think one of the biggest hurdles Department will face isnt necessarly just cost, but TRAINING. Proper, safe training at that. Lets think for a minute,,,if the Bailout Bag Gods visit your Firehouse and handed everyone a bailout system, how many people would actually know how to use it,and properly maintain it SAFELY, without specialized training? Now, whos gonna train you? How many Volunteer Departments have the luxury of personel skilled in this area? Who gets to be the one who determines when any part of your system need to be replaced or taken OOS? Is it the individual or the Company Officer? If its you and you get hurt because you should have taken some part of your system OOS and you didnt, does some savvey Insurance Laywer step in and deny your claim? Remember the rule of thumb on life safety rope,,,use it one and replace it. Is this the ONLY piece of rope your Department will give you because money is tight and somebody made it a law? Will the District maintain your system "as needed" or does it get looked at once a year just to be compliant. Now, I know someone out there is saying that this equipment is no different than any other piece of District Issued gear. Maybe, maybe not. I think that answer varies with each Department and its staffing. Ahhhh, staffing, yet another thought. To my knowlege, this law uses the term "Firefighter". What it doesnt do is distinguish between Interior and Exterior. I tend to doubt my Department is the only place that has Interior and Exterior classified members. Now, should each District be forced to supply a bailout system to someone who may never enter a building? Perhaps yes in some cases I suppose, BUT , that person may be Exterior due to age or a medical condition and they may never be able to be successfully trained on a bailout system.Does that mean they loose their status as Firefighter??? Depending on the Department, this could have a major impact on operations. Think about all of the tasks that go on outside a burning building that make for a manageable and safe fireground, particullarly in Volunteer Departments, which are performed by "Exterior" personel.
I may not have all the facts about this new law, but I just felt like I had to chime in with my opinion. Its a hot topic and Im sure there is more to come.

Stay Safe Everyone!

Mike

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by FireRescue1.com on February 13, 2008 at 4:42pm

Some manufactures are moving to in-turnout harness systems. I think Globe fire suits actually has a personal harness woven into their bunker gear and the system can be used in-conjunction with a SCBA housed hook.

• ▶ Reply

▶ Reply to Discussion