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Do your firefighters depend on technology to much?
Do younger firefighter rely too much on technology like Thermal Imaging and Bail out systems instead of the basic skills that we need to know?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by BIGTRUCKMAN18 Overpeck on
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This is not to say techology is bad it is just trying to get views from my brother out there. What I have started to see over the past few year inside fire situations is a reliance on some of the newer technolgies. As in the case of Thermal imagine I have seen that yes it works great making our job a little easier and faster but the down fall is I have also seen guys depend on it way to much. That they get tunnel vision while using it and when the battery drains or like we all know when you need it it breaks(Murphy's Law) they freak out and act like they can survive now without it! Another piece of equipment is the Bail Out System, well I see more and more firefighter bragging hey I HAVE THIS TYPE OF SYSTEM i HAVE THIS MUCH ROPE BUT YOU DONT HEAR ALOT OF YOUNGER MEMBERS REALLY SAYING HEY I UNDERSTAND FIRE BEHAVIOR OR HEY I REALLY UNDERSTAND BUILDING CONSTRUCTION. I just hate to see the way some firefighters have forgotten the basics and honestly the bascics have worked for many years before we were all around! So lets take time to teach both not just a reliance on the technologies that are here to help us.
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Permalink Reply by John on
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Could be but in my dept or at least my station there is not much of the "I have this or that" its more on like which knife we have or something that would help the situation out with. But thats not to say that alot of newbies do that, I still consider myself new and I really don't wanna rely on alot of tech stuff thats electronic, knowing how that electronics do not work well in high heat (former auto tech that I am) I have seen alot of electronics fail, but not in the fire service yet and I hope I never get to see a Thermal break when we need it.
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Permalink Reply by Eric on
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I think that it essential to train the basics extensively. Know how to use the tech stuff, but when things truly get bad, the basics are what get people through. I agree that technology can make things easier and faster. I think though, that this should be used to add on to basic firefighting knowledge and ability. I relate it to my time in the army (as I do in alot of posts). Sure it's great to have a nice little GPS system so you can get to exactly where you need to be in the middle of whatever situation you're in, but knowing how to do it with a map and compass is even better. I like to relate that to thermal imaging. Sure it's great to have and can speed up certain things, but what do you do when the batteries fail. I think that departments should take notice of this possible "trend" and make sure that the training officers/coordinators are teaching guys (especially new guys) how to do things the right way, the basic way. You can always teach the new guys to use the technology after they know how to do the basics. Besides, I think the veteran firefighters are going to be the ones that grab the "cool stuff", leaving the new guys with only the basics to use anyway. Now where would that new guy be if he only knew how to use the technology and not the basics? As a pretty new guy myself, I like to concentrate on the basics before getting "fancy" with the technology. Give me the attack line or a set of irons and I'm happy. Anyway, that's just my opinion.
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Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on
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My take on this is probably a little different that what you were thinking...
The fire service has ALWAYS depended on technology.
Horse-drawn steamer engines and screw-raised aerial ladders - technology.
Motorized fire apparatus and centrifugal fire pumps - technology.
Soda=acid fire extinguishers - technology.
Jaws of Life - technology.
SCBA and aramid turnout gear fabrics - technology.
Rescue air bags and pneumatic shoring struts - technology.
Class A foam and CAFS - technology.
Thermal imagers and bail-out systems - technology.
Technology has NEVER replaced solid basic training, teaching new firefighters the basics of fire behavior and fireground safety, and teamwork.
Technology is not to blame - techology and a solid foundation in what it can do adds to our capability - it doesn't take away from it.
If the newer members of your department aare focused on new technology to the exclusion of the basics, the issue seems to be a training focus problem, not over-reliance on technology.
Ben
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Permalink Reply by Tony P on
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And that Ben is exactly where the problem lies. Where the emphasis is placed whilst delivering training. Everything we use was high technology at one time - even a shovel! We use the new stuff, we train with it. But the emphasis is always on the fact that this new thing is a tool, and just one tool amongst many. The basics must always be a big part of training, they underpin everything we do.
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Permalink Reply by Smoke Eater on
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I think this is a good discussion. I have been on the job for 13 yrs. now and on the last 2 alarms with nothing showing I pretty much soley relied on the thermal imager to show me there was nothing wrong. Not thinking to take a closer look with my own eyes. I did go over every inch of the structure but what if that wasn't enough? And I had a probie with me to boot! What if we got called out on a structure fire at the same address we had been to earlier on an investigation? I think he would lose alot of trust in me and I wouldn't blame him. He is supposed to be learning from me. Thank you so much for this. It's got me thinking again. I guess you really do get compacent the longer you go.
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This can be seen as the other side of the training coin. The emphasis in training has to be that what we use are tools, simply that. Using your TIC scenario, we push over and over during TIC training that the camera cannot replace our other training, that we have to use all of our training all the time. But it is so easy for complacency to set in. I've been guilty of that, as I think most of us have to a degree at one time or another.
I had a job like that one of yours about a week ago. I could detect a faint smell of smoke - very faint but I was sure it was there. I had the TIC up in the roof space of a house (bloody hot up there even without a fire!) but could find nothing - nothing at all. So I went back to using my eyes and my helmet torch. That's when I found saw a very faint trace of smoke. Called for a short hooligan, a water extinguisher, and a shovel. Rip up some boards forming a crawl-way, squirt and then shovel out the smouldering ceiling insulation and job done. No call back to that one thankfully!
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We had a chimney fire today. We got the fire out in the stove and chimney. Then I requested the tic, looked around with it like always. Then I remembered this thread. I started using my hands to feel walls to make sure there was no fire spread. I felt pretty confident that the house was going to be okay. It felt good to not be second guessing myself after leaving the residence. Once again, I say thank you truckman for starting this one.
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Permalink Reply by turk182 on
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I think to some extent we are depending on certain technologies to much and are getting away from teaching the basic searches.
Like BIGTRUCKMAN18 said the thermal cameras are great but when they fail once you are inside alot of people panic a little because they are not use to working with out them.
When we train at the station I will train them on crawl throughs with the camera and with out that way they are use to doing it both ways. I just think we should not get dependent on technology and mesh training with it and the basics.
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Permalink Reply by Shareef Abdu Nur on
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This is a very good discussion and a topic that we really need to cover. I try to convey to the newer FF's that technology is their to assist you, but nothing can replace your own senses and instincts. Firefighting is not just a job, it is actually a skill that is learned through training and experience over years of service. No FF has seen it all and we are all only one call away from death or serious injury. Instead of crawling into zero visibility with a Thermal Imager glued to our face, we should use our senses, experience, and tools to guide us and warn us of impending danger. The TIC should be used every few feet or so, to readjust our bearings and scan the environment, but we should not rely on it like a set of eyes that can see through smoke. We should use our ears to hear water hitting a ceiling or far wall, We should use our hands to feel the difference in floor types to tell us what type of room where are in. We should use our tools to sound floors as we go. we should use "memory recognition" to remember what clothes hanging in a closet feels like or what a bathtub feels like, or what the tires of a car feel like in a garage. TIC's are a great advancement in Firefighting and used properly, they do save lives. But, used improperly and they can aid in serious injury. Example: A FF crawls into room using a TIC to look ahead and above but manages to fall in a hole in the floor.
Bail out systems are great, but they should not be a plan "A" or an excuse to not "read" a room. The best bail out plan is not have to bail out. We need to read the heat and smoke in a room, have secondary means of egress and not get in so deep to the point that jumping out of a window is the only option for survival. FF's have rope bags and harnesses and somehow we start to think that we are invincible. I don't care how much we pay for our harnesses, ropes, and etc...if a senior FF says this room is not safe and we should leave, LISTEN before it's to late. We should not rely on flashing LED lights to monitor our own breathing air consumption. Practice air management/coservation before your alarm goes off.
Technology is great as long as it is used in the right situations and used properly. My favorite piece of technology is a thinking, breathing, seeing, listening, feeling, experienced FF. I'll take him/her over any tool you can give me.
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Permalink Reply by lutan1 on
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Interesting to read the latest Fire Engineering e-newsletter- they have a round table discussion taking place about technology failures.
Does your department have a plan for what to do if a technological device you are using fails--for example, what to do if the thermal imaging camera fails once a crew enters an IDLH atmosphere, or what to do if you're in trouble and your PASS device fails to activate?
http://tinyurl.com/8u9gyx
It'll be an interesting one to see the responses when they come in....
On a slightly side note, how many people train for failures? I often will do simple things like remove equipment that hasn't been put back in a staging area, or specify equipment that must be used during a drill, etc. Makes for some fun and some "out of the box" thinking by course participants.
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For what I consider a very important topic, there have been surprisingly few posts to this thread. Is it that the concept of emphasising basic fire training is one that's generally followed? That the newer technologies are widely being taught as 'simply another tool'?
The use of a TIC has been mentioned by several as one newer technology that can be misused, trained with to the extent that older methods are being ignored. We emphasise the use of TIC as an 'extra tool' so much that I don't think we use ours enough on the fireground! Better than the reverse, but still not good enough.
Another piece of 'equipment' that can be relied upon too much is our aramid fibre PPE. We have this marvelous clothing that can pretty well withstand flashover. Does this mean we're no longer learning to properly read fires? Because let's face it, if a fire is about to flash then we shouldn't damn well be in there! If a fire is close to flashing then really, what's the likelihood that any victim still inside can be rescued? If a room is that hot are we not just attempting to recover a body? This also leads me to the more modern BA, the sets with masks that have HUD to show what's happening outside the mask - temperature, remaining air etc. I was trained using my ears as the temperature test, ears getting too hot then get out. We don't have the modern BA so we train to keep an eye on our BA pressure guage, if the low air whistle is sounding then we should already be outside the fire building. We don't carry individual radios, so we train to stay in close contact with our team, and to check our DSU's (PASS device in North America) every time we don the equipment, to make sure the thing functions.
All more things to be aware of. Does my FRS do it all correctly? No. Are we perfect? Definitely not! Our fairly low-tech approach - hell, I haven't even been issued with my new aramid PPE yet, I'm still wearing wool and cotton! - is keeping us on the basic training path.
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