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Wealthy Calif. homeowners get private fire crews
By Catherine Saillant and Jia-rui Chong
The Los Angeles Times
MONTECITO, Calif. — As Southern California deals with the reality of recurring, destructive wildfires, a sometimes-controversial cottage industry of private response teams has sprung up to help save the homes of well-to-do clients.
Such teams were highly visible in the Tea fire, which raged across one of the nation's costliest neighborhoods, destroying 210 homes and damaging nine others.
More at http://www.firerescue1.com/fire-news/439904-wealthy-calif-homeowner...
Is this fair? Why can't all citizens have this level of protection?
The Los Angeles Times
MONTECITO, Calif. — As Southern California deals with the reality of recurring, destructive wildfires, a sometimes-controversial cottage industry of private response teams has sprung up to help save the homes of well-to-do clients.
Such teams were highly visible in the Tea fire, which raged across one of the nation's costliest neighborhoods, destroying 210 homes and damaging nine others.
More at http://www.firerescue1.com/fire-news/439904-wealthy-calif-homeowner...
Is this fair? Why can't all citizens have this level of protection?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by lutan1 on
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Mark, I'm seeing zero difference- other than one is protecting a home versus an industrial complex.
If I put my business owner hat on, if I was approached tomorrw to do this here in Australia, and I had the resources in terms of equipment and personnel, and the guys had the training, then I'd jump at it. No doubt about it.
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We have found some very reputable contractors and others that are less than reputable," and Roper said he's seen private trucks using flashing red lights and sirens, violating laws that allow such devices only on public emergency response vehicles.
And youtube is full of videos of so called "real" firefighters driving like fools, breaking laws and acting just as unsafely- is it a reflection of all the fire service? NO and nor is a few acting recklessly as the article suggetsed...
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Permalink Reply by Bob on
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Mark you are so wrong on so many points! And very insulting from your holy high better than thou perch...
All large wildland Fires in California have private contractors on scene, from the Air Tanker and the Iraq war vet pilot overhead to the Map/GIS guy in a trailer, or the laundry lady cleaning out your shorts to the Private Hand Crew cutting a hot line(Not real firefighters Mark?)
From the trained professional guy in a water tender who has been on more wild land fires than most LG types have ever seen to the young lady named Katie barely 21 years of age wearing full PPE covered in soot and dirt climbing out of her hightrak D-8 dozer after cutting eight miles of fireline on the Summit Fire, From a "Old timer" named Ernie climbing out of a private foam truck after pre treating homes in Concow during a firestorm in Butte, or the Water Tender operator named Dana that saved his whole neighborhood fighting both structure and wildland fires that hit his home(Lost the chicken coop) and then went on to work for weeks on the Harris Fire.
And especially the Nine Iron 44 Greyback firefighters and pilots who gave there lives this year on the Panther fire.
Not real fire fighters Mark?
We do not get to retire at 50 making a six figure retirement but we are as dedicated as you any day....
Mandatory Evauations: It is becoming obvious to the new generation of Fire managers that a Stay and Defend - Shelter in place strategy is needed in California - If your able bodied and you can stay and defend your property, and if needed shelter in your house as the fire passes. Also there is no real Mandatory evacuation law in California, The law can keep you out but you can not be forced to leave as some heavy handed LEO's need to learn.
Warning lights: California has private code 3 vehicles all over the place from Ambulances to Fire Engines such as North Tree Fire has.
Insurance companies: It has already been proven as cost effective to pre-treat and defend a multi millon dollar home with highly trained, well equipped professional private firefighters, and just recently the only firefighters in Hidden Estates during the Sayer Firestorm were privates! Thank AIG that they were there!
First and last of all everyone is in it for the money!(Except me I would fight wildland fire for free if I was rich!)
especially full time public agency personal! Are you willing to take a 25% pay cut and kick your retirement back five, ten years to help the State out...Come on show some dedication Mark...
Happy Turkey Day to All!
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Permalink Reply by Art "ChiefReason" Goodrich on
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Ah yes; I was reading about this just the other day at FireRescue1.
It raises a lot of questions in my mind.
For instance:
Where are these firefighters coming from?
With communities suffering to keep their rosters full of capable people, how is that we have enough to populate “private fire companies”? Could these people be “two hatting”? Are communities being left under manned while these privateers earn money from the insurance companies?
What qualifications do these private fire companies possess? Do they have any type of recognizable or certifiable skills?
What standards are they being held to? Are they similar in type to industrial fire brigades, for instance?
What AHJ has been empowered to over see the activities of these insurance company employees? NFPA? NIOSH? DOL?
What about the equipment that is being used? Again; is this equipment that will pass muster if inspected? From apparatus to PPE; who is insuring that what is being used is acceptable and safe?
Are these insurance company fire brigades making it better or worse for agencies such as the US Forest Service? Are they in a position that may require another agency to risk their resources and lives to get them out, should they need assistance? What has been gained?
It is an interesting concept, but how did it sort of “sneak” up on us? I don’t remember seeing the memo or even discussion on this new phenomenon. I feel that, before this cottage industry is allowed to deploy on a larger scale, we need to make certain that it is an industry that will be tightly regulated. Otherwise; we will be dealing with more deaths, all in the names of saving some rich guy’s property.
We need to make certain that risk vs. gain has been properly implemented and one justifies the other.
IMHO.
TCSS.
Art
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A lot of these folk's in California are from the same private hand crews, engine crews, dozers, tenders, that have worked for CAL FIRE, USFS under contract for years nothing real new except another funding source for WUI protection and suppression, same qualifications as any wildland firefighter most of the time(Red carded) same PPE, radios, etc as any other firefighter there...
So what if they are tasked for that day to structure protection at a specific address.
* I agree that they really should be more interaction with the IC and notification of all plans each day after the initial attack. - Not heavy handed, hamstrung regulations just common ground comm's.
Common radio communication is already easy they use a reprogrammable BK radio like everyone.
* The saving of asses goes both ways in a fire.
* A lot of local Gov type 1 engine crews that have never experienced a real firestorm should be real happy to see experienced wildland fire pro's show up during a firestorm- regardless if they work for the Governor.
* I have also seen many privates at every fire camp from type 1 engines to type 6 pickups, Half track water tender contraptions to bad ass state of the art type 3's and from every state including Minnesota and Florida a lot this year in California, so on the WUI fire line do not assume they work for a insurance company they more than likely work under contract for CAL FIRE or the USFS.
Business question: If you insured "twenty five-hundred Multi-million dollar homes" in an upscale neighborhood in the LA County mountains would it be prudent to arrange for WUI pre-treatment and fire suppression for your investment?
or now insert "Oil Refinery" into the question, "Car assembly plant", "weapons manufacturing complex", "rocket fuel plant", "oil wells", "natural gas plant", "coal mine", "nuclear reactor", "Airport", "Etc" all of these may have private fire crews it's about protecting the investment not the "rich guy"
IMHO
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TO give a bit of an insight into the Aussie systems- the industrial firefighters/ERT's that we provide organisaitons all hold the same nationally accreditted comeptencies that the career and vol firefighters do. That's the beauty of a national system.
So in this instance, if it were in Australia, it's a non-issue.
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Permalink Reply by Tony P on
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Mark, correct me if I'm wrong, but I see your criticisms of these private firefighters as not saying that they're not quakified, but saying that we, the 'official' firefighters have no way of knowing just how qualified they are? If so, that's something that concerns we also.
Here, we have private Fire Brigades. Both structural and wildfire - the structural ones range from emergency crews at oil refineries to fulltime FF's at military bases. The wildfire privates are run by the timber companies for the protection of their plantations. We know what training these people get, and if they come off of their own property they come under the control of my fire service, the Country Fire Authority. (At least this is my understanding, Lutan will correct me about the industrial Brigades if I'm wrong. For the timber industry Brigades I am correct) Private vehicles with emergency lights and sirens? Yes, they exist - see what I said above about private fire organisations. Ambulance is a State organisation here, private clinical transport vehicles may have lights and sirens fitted, but they are not emergency vehicles unless and until they come under the direct control of the Ambulance Service. Any private individual, group or company that instals and uses lights and sirens had better be prepared for a long chat with the police - it would not be condoned. The police get very irate about that sort of thing.
Now, as for private organisations to come along and spray houses with foam or whatever before a firefront comes near? Great, go for it (just don't try running lights and sirens...) if it helps I'm all for it. But get the hell off of the fireground when we tell you to! The way the law is currently, they can be ordered away, and would not be allowed to enter through road blocks. When we see a BRT coming along the raod, we know what training they have as everyone is required to have done the same training to the same minimum standard - the advantage of a State-wide Fire Service. Private individuals we'd have no idea about and no time to start checking. Anyone can wave a piece of paper saying how qualified they are.
G'day Mike - I like the picture! Tele lens? Bad light and tele really needs a tripod or other rest! But it's a graphic shot!
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Permalink Reply by Oldman on
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I cannot speak with limited knowledge of fire services in other parts of the world, but it appears to me that we (the American fire service) are coming full circle. If we look at the history of the fire service in the United States, who funded the fire companies in colonial America? Who paid departments for suppressing fires? Why were firemarks displayed? If I remember right, it was Insurance companies. And if memory serves me, the ones who can afford more, usually got better service. I think they call it "the American way".
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Private insurance company owned and run fire brigades and the use of fire marks is a little more widespread than just the USA! We had that system too, until it was realised that some sort of control was needed. Both on the fireground and off. Even now, the fire services in my State are mainly funded via a levy on fire insurance premiums, in our case about 72% from the insurance companies and the rest from state government coffers.
From reading on this and other sites I get the imprsssion that people are not generally in favour of freelancing on the fieground. Usually that's seen as at a structural fire. But freelancing on any fireground is hazardous, and this type of thing, private vehicles tearing around doing there own work, is freelancing. If they're under the overall control of the Incident Controller, OK. Otherwise, get them off of the fireground. Imagine, these people go into a bad area to provide protection to a building or two and without knowing this the units under control of the ICS set a backburn. Could be very nasty.
Our primary concern is safety.
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So as a private homeowner/landowner you would be against me hiring my own fire protection when your unable or unlikely to provide any at all during a large WUI fire?
and if I am paying for them you want the IC to be able to tell them what to do?
What if I have my own water tender, Dozer, full PPE, tools, hose, nozzles, a son with wild land training and experience, Wildland fire is approaching on my land... Am I supposed to put my tail between my legs and wait for the Calvary? or "start tearing around there doing my own work"? You won't get me off my own land (fireground or not) this is America...
I cannot get the concept guess I like taking care of my own like not waiting for Local Gov/State/FEMA to showup...
I am curious about one thing you mentioned ICS is Aussie ICS same as US ICS?
ICS and offshoots such as NIM's were originally developed and honed in Southern California wildfires...
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Tony P:
You're absolutely right. The integrity of the fireground must be maintained through Incident Command.
Here, when there is a wildland fire, there is coordination between the wildland firefighters, in many cases, the US Forest Service and the local jurisdictions. They call it "interfacing" here.
Since the US Forest Service is a federal agency, I don't have to tell you who is the top rung in the organizational ladder.
If a local jurisdiction were to set a "backfire" without authorization of the USFS Incident Commander, I would guess that some serious scat would hit the fan.
I find it hard to believe that an insurance company could just drop a crew into an affected area without some authorization/permission of the Authority Having Jurisdiction (AHJ).
It may not be "free-lancing", but it would be pretty damned close.
I have to see more on this concept in order to get a warm fuzzy.
Mark:
To answer your question on whether it's fair? I am sure if any insured would want to pay more premium, the service would be available to them.
With regards to why everyone who lives out in the middle of the Douglas firs get/don't get the same protection? In my mind, they do. There is documentation that MILLIONS of dollars have been spent to save ONE house during a wildland fire. Compliments of the US taxpayers.
So, it appears to me that, even if they don't have the same services offered by the insurance company, they have the same protection provided by the USFS. It would appear!
TCSS.
Art
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Tony in the United States it is called a Unified Command...
And many of these large California fires had no US forest service in the incident command.
There is Fed , State land, Indian, and local responsibility areas. So if CAL FIRE is fighting a large fire on the SRA they maybe the only agency on the fire, as the fire approaches a city, or national park as examples it will become a Unified command with that agency and CAL FIRE might even hand the whole fire over to that agency and visa versa.
And it was a freelancing agency capt. setting a backfire that killed a Marin firefighter on the Cedar Fire...
I am only discussing WUI Interface fires "staying and defending" which includes private help nothing else....
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