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Fog or Smooth Bore Nozzles
What does your dept use on the initial attack inside a structure fire? Fog or Smooth Bore. Lets hear the pros and cons and your preference
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Chris on
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People, I don;t want to make anyone mad here, but lets use some common sense. People are saying you don't have the luxury of the "protection" of a fog stream. Well I would beg to differ. We are all taught in the academy to work the nozzle in a circular motion to hit all areas of the room or what ever is on fire, and to absorb as much heat as possible. So if you are comfronted with a flashover or "pre"flashover situation, with you fog stream you are going to turning it to a fog and back out, atleast that is what I am hearing. This will create millions of really small droplets of water that will instantly turn to steam and burn you to hell, on top of that this will bring in a tremendous air movement from behind you, why do you say, well it is a proven fact to fog nozzles geneate a tremendous amount of air movement, (and if they didn't people wouldn't be so hung up on the after the fires over fact of hydraulic ventilation) and you most likley entered through a door that remains open, this may actually back fire on you by introducing large amount of air into an already volitile aptmosphere creating a worse situation than you already have on your hands.
With a smooth bore faced with the same sitcho, open it all the way, the large droplets of water will absorb more heat in that volitile environment, creat less steam, and still have the reach and penetration should you over come the situation. Also, by just moving the nozzle in a circular motion you acheive the same coverage as a fog with much less air movement and much larger droplets of water to absorb all that heat. This is a simple thing. Not rocket science. Plus much less nozzle reaction, much easier to handle in our short handed FD's that we all run in.
Oh, and I am sure someone is going to say, "but you can hydralicly ventilate, wrong, do some reasearch on Fire engieering, and find the nozzle test, if you open a smooth bore half way, you get just a little less air movement then a fog nozzle @ 30 Degrees, proven fact. try it during training. But any way, why are we concerned with what we are doing after we acheive knock down if we can't get a knock down??? Ever look at it that way.
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Problem with combinations, you cant' change over under fire conditions, and you waste time changing over at the front door. Pick one. And with the built in all in ones that akron makes, if you don't train with it, it can be complicatied, especially under high stress situations.
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Permalink Reply by Rescue601 on
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Chris you keep mentioning the detriments of fighting a fire with a fog pattern. You don't fight a fire with a fog pattern, instead you fight it with a power cone or a straight stream. Actually in the academy I was taught to fight a fire with a T, Z, or 0 pattern as each one has it benefits. Additionally the information you were given regarding the tactics using a fog nozzle in a pre flashover condition is inaccurate.
Lastly if you can't work a combo nozzle in a stressful situation then you shouldn't be going interior.
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Permalink Reply by Tony P on
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Adjustable flow, adjustable pattern for majority of attacks. SB used only in really large fires or for surround and drown if the house is gone when you arrive. I don't like the automatices myself. Also, for us it's only 'fog' if it's set to a defence pattern, otherwise it's 'spray' until it reaches 'jet'. We also use 38mm (1 1/2 inch)for attack lines - and losing a house is rare, most fires being confined to room of origin.
Use what you want to use, just use it properly.
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Permalink Reply by Ernest Girardin on
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We use Fog but I like smooth bore .Better movement and faster nozzle movement ,I also think it works better on buildings constructed with plaster and lath as far as thermal knockdown
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Permalink Reply by Trainer on
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Different tools for different tasks. We carry 3 types of nozzles; combi for cleanup, mop up, hot spots, and occasionally a smoke ejector, stack tip smoothbore for reach, penetration, and to flow big water, more for defense. For initial attack we use a Vindacator, it aspirates enough to create lots of droplets to cover more of the fire, has the penetration and reach of the smoothbore and flows just as much water. I know it sounds too good to be true, but we have done many side by side comparisons. It also has almost no nozzle reaction. It doesn’t work for smoke ejection, and if you are running out of porta tanks, it does suck water.
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Permalink Reply by Joe Stoltz on
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Trainer, I have to differ with you on the Vindicator's reach. In June we burned a house, and I was covering the side 1 exposures with a vindicator. We had to retreat out into the road because of the heat and the vindy couldn't reach the house. I called for a smoothbore - 15/16 tip on a 1 3/4 inch line - and it reached the house and allowed us to cool it down.
Having said that, if given the choice between vindicator and smooth bore, I will pick the vindicator every time. We have one each on our crosslays.
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Ok, I can understand that, actual reach is very close to the same, but with the situation you described, the Vindacator stream would be too degraded to be affective. Our side by sides were just lobbing water with a flow meter. I’m guessing this was a torch at the end of the day, stand back and let it burn. But now you’re defensive, and I would go straight bore. With that said, there are different models, and the smaller ones are only efficient up to I think 100psi, and even at that you’re really sucking water. For initial offensive attack, I don’t think there is anything close. Nice to see someone else with these, we carry one vin and one combi on each of our pre-connects, we use the combi when you have to think about conserving water.
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Permalink Reply by FETC on
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It depends on what I call to use for my company on arrival.......... I have the option of traditional Smooth Bore (or) Chief's 175/75 Combination Nozzle with #45 NR on 1.75 attack lines (or) Chief 250/50 Combination Nozzle on 2.5" Blitzline.
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Permalink Reply by Asst. Chief Bigshow on
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I prefer the combo noz becuase of the ability to use fog or straight stream. It's easier to adapt to different situations. About the only time we use smooth bore is on our deck gun, but we have a fog/ss gpm adjustable for it as well. But as long as I can get the wet stuff on the red stuff and accomplish what I came out to do that's what's important.
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What the question should really be is What exact nozzles are you CURRENTLY using and does it flow adequate GPM for modern day BTU's? Do you know what they flow? Working PSI? and the NR?
I am reading some have said Adjustable GPM - Combination nozzles... are we talking about a 60-125gpm adjustable nozzle? These have flashover written all over them and they should be placed on a shelf before your next fire. They were designed for 1.5" lines and provide just enough water to hurt you, especailly if you have a pump operator that doesn't understand hydraulics and friction loss. 100/150/200/250' lines all need diiferent pressures that effect the fire attack. Studies have shown because the NR -nozzle reaction force is so great with these obsolete nozzles (#80 lbs) that many firefighters and officers ask to reduce the working pressures to make them more manageable but are actually flowing ONLY 80-90gpm.
I am amazed I still find them on some newer engines attached to 1.75" attack lines. WTF?
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