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Debate 2: Figure 8 Descenders Have No Place in Rescue
After misreading the original debate on these forums about the use of the Figure 8 KNOT, I wanted to really get a controversial debate and discussion going about the use of the Figure 8 DESCENDER in rescue.
I for one, will never advocate or promte the use of the Figure 8 for any part of a rope rescue, wheter it be as a descender, belay device, etc.
Here's my reasons, not in any order-
1) No safety mechanism- The Figure 8 has no single or double stop mechanism
2) Human Factor 1- The Figure 8 relies on the rescue having at least one hand on the rope at all times. In a a "lost footing" situation or similar, the rescue can let go of the rope to catch themselves, resulting in a fall
3) Human Factor 2- Two different ways to reeve it. Depending on what way you're taught, you can come up from the bottom or from on top of the device (Does that makes sense?) THis can result in larks heading the device if the unit/rope gets caught on an edge. This in turn can lock up the descender leaving the rescuer stranded.
4) Multiple lock offs- The device can be locked off multiple ways- again they all have different pro's and con's. THis can create confusion to members that may be used to one way, and then having to be taught another way, etc.
5) Load ratings- Again, depending on the type and brand used, there's a load of different load ratings. Again, adds to the confusion.
6) Hands off test- One of the tests we do here when training is to blow the whistle. Every member of the team should be able to take their hands off everything and no one should be able to move or be in danger. With a figure 8, you let you, you fall.
7) Casualty/Rescue safety- If the casualty is combattant (spelling?) or panics, they can put both them and the rescuer in danger by knocking them, etc.
8) Friction- The unit heats up very quickly and is really only best suited to short rappels.
9) Human Factor 3- The unit reuqires the operator to control the speed/friction by hand. This can be too hard to control in a rescue situation.
10) Human Factor 4- Load it up with a rescue and a casulty and you've just increased the isuses around controlling the device and the friction.
For me, I'll take a double stop descender any day over an 8. Recreationally I use the 8 for quick small jumps, but that's it.
Now I know this is going to be controversial, so let's hear your thoughts, but be nice about it!!!!!
I for one, will never advocate or promte the use of the Figure 8 for any part of a rope rescue, wheter it be as a descender, belay device, etc.
Here's my reasons, not in any order-
1) No safety mechanism- The Figure 8 has no single or double stop mechanism
2) Human Factor 1- The Figure 8 relies on the rescue having at least one hand on the rope at all times. In a a "lost footing" situation or similar, the rescue can let go of the rope to catch themselves, resulting in a fall
3) Human Factor 2- Two different ways to reeve it. Depending on what way you're taught, you can come up from the bottom or from on top of the device (Does that makes sense?) THis can result in larks heading the device if the unit/rope gets caught on an edge. This in turn can lock up the descender leaving the rescuer stranded.
4) Multiple lock offs- The device can be locked off multiple ways- again they all have different pro's and con's. THis can create confusion to members that may be used to one way, and then having to be taught another way, etc.
5) Load ratings- Again, depending on the type and brand used, there's a load of different load ratings. Again, adds to the confusion.
6) Hands off test- One of the tests we do here when training is to blow the whistle. Every member of the team should be able to take their hands off everything and no one should be able to move or be in danger. With a figure 8, you let you, you fall.
7) Casualty/Rescue safety- If the casualty is combattant (spelling?) or panics, they can put both them and the rescuer in danger by knocking them, etc.
8) Friction- The unit heats up very quickly and is really only best suited to short rappels.
9) Human Factor 3- The unit reuqires the operator to control the speed/friction by hand. This can be too hard to control in a rescue situation.
10) Human Factor 4- Load it up with a rescue and a casulty and you've just increased the isuses around controlling the device and the friction.
For me, I'll take a double stop descender any day over an 8. Recreationally I use the 8 for quick small jumps, but that's it.
Now I know this is going to be controversial, so let's hear your thoughts, but be nice about it!!!!!
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Stelzer III on
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Very good and valid points.. I will pay more attention to this on my next training desent
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Permalink Reply by llpoteat on
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Mabey the debate should not be eight or no eight, but should be Rap vs lower. However, if an eight is not good enough to rap for rescue then why or what makes it good enough to use for recreation. I understand we want to be the fix for somebody elses problem but the consequnces are the same "falling to our bloody screaming death"
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Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on
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Rappelling is not just a sport - it can also be a very effective rescue technique.
Example: The Troll ALLP descender system is designed to be used either on rappel, as a lowering device, or both.
Example: You have an uninjured victim in need of a pickoff and two rescuers. One rescuer tends a bely line, while the other rescuer rappels with a G-rated descender and makes the pickoff. Rescuer 1 then tends the belay line while Rescuer 2 rappels to the ground with the victim. If you use a lower-based system, you need at least 3 people to make it work. A rappel-based vertical rescue can easily be completed with one rappeller and one belayer.
There are numerous other uses for rappelling, inlcuding quick victim access on steep slopes, rescues and rescue team member evacuations from towers and other tall structures, and quick evacuations from burning buildings. -
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Figure 8 plates are typically not as strong as a G-rated rack. Figure 8's are designed for one-person loads, while the G-rated racks are rated for rescue (two-person) loads.
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Permalink Reply by Jason Brooks on
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There is a much higher stress factor in a rescue situation. There are also many more heads and hands involved. If you use an 8 for personal use, then you know if you are comortable with its use. When we rig for rescue, we tend to try and make it so that as little as possible can go wrong if someone should stop paying attention or screw up. That would be the down and dirty answer. One other issue, is that your recreational rope tends to have a single prupose, your fun and rappelling. The rescue ropes we use can have multiple uses. Lowering, raising, rappelling, etc. The 8 introduces a twist into the sheath that can wreak havoc on yor systems. The 8 also, will not pass a whistle test. Even is used properly for a pick-off, the unlocking of the tie-off cna shock the load the system pretty good.
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Permalink Reply by TrainingTECH1 on
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Testify Brother! I think these devices have seen there day and need to put on the shelf for recreational use only.
I will say though, you can make some slick load distributing anchors out of an 8 plate and they do work as a rigging plate in a pinch. -
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Permalink Reply by GW on
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I agree in part that the figure 8 no longer has a place in technical rescue operations. There is a post from a gentleman in Argentina, I believe what he is describing is what I learned as a "Tactical Rappel." The method, incorporates an etrier, prussik, or other software into the system between the carabiner on the harness, and the figure 8, this added length provides adequate space to place a prussik onto the mainline on the rappellers side of the 8 plate--if the rescuer is to let go of the rope, panic, etc. the prussik locks and the rescuer is secure--though it can take some doing to unlock the prussik--it is "whistle stop" passable. An electrician who does the Kansas City, Plaza Lights, also explained that he uses the method for all of his work--single line.
That said, rescue teams who choose the figure 8 over other devices for the matter of cost should seriously consider the priority paradigm in which they are functioning. There are simply too many better, safer, and more appropriate devices. There is a reason we upgrade SCBA's, purchase new rope, and buy new apparatus--because technology and responsibility demand this of us. The figure 8 is simple to use--but yes, it twists rope, does not have varying levels of friction, can only be used with one rope (as opposed to 2 with the brake rack) and unless used in a tactical belay--is not fail safe.
The debate over whether to rappel or to be lowered is entity specific; most large or medium sized departments have adequate personnel to establish redundant systems with independent lowering and belay lines--HOWEVER, there are times when lowering is not an option--we should all maintain the ability to safely rappel--it is not rocket science--and you never know when you will have to dig deep into the tool box.
Great to read so many different ideas. Look forward to hearing more. -
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Permalink Reply by lutan1 on
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That said, rescue teams who choose the figure 8 over other devices for the matter of cost should seriously consider the priority paradigm in which they are functioning. There are simply too many better, safer, and more appropriate devices.
Well said GW! -
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I will say though, you can make some slick load distributing anchors out of an 8 plate and they do work as a rigging plate in a pinch.
I can't remember where, but I could've sworn I read somehwere that they're not safe to use as a rigging plate due to the stresses....
Anyone else heard this? -
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Permalink Reply by Dave Reed on
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All very good points
But to say that it should not be part of rescue ??
OK There are other tools thtat do other things.
But the fact in the right hands the tool works fine . Users need to be well versed with operations and what it can & can not do. -
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I agree with you for the most part, but when I am doing a helio rappel I would rather have the 8 its quicker to get off rope so the next rescuer can get down and the helio can move on. The pilot has enough to worry about let alone hovering while the rescuer unhooks.
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