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PPV and PPA
I did an internet class yesterday at the fire station on PPA (positve pressure attac). I have been around the fire service for many years and alot of this class goes agianst everything I have learned over the years. I would love to implement what I learned but I would like to know if anybody is activly using PPA and how is it working for you.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Kriss Garcia on
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We have done dozens of evaluations regarding the environment behind the fire. Our tests indicate that the area in the survival area of the room where an unconscious victim is, always becomes dramatically more tenable than if the fire is attacked while waiting for someone to open a roof. We have done tests. Great Britain has also done several evaluations of this. Take a look at some of the third party evaluations listed in the resource section of positivepressureattack.com
Thanks
Kriss
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Anything can screw something up with little or not education. I concur with you. I am saying the same thing you are. Don't use it until the entire department is educated and have trained with the tactic.
Thanks
Kriss
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Hey Roger nice to hear form you. I gave a copy of yoru book to my son. He loved it.
Thanks
Kriss
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Permalink Reply by Jason Black on
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I have used the PPV on several fires and it does work. Before I became chief our old chief would only use it to remove smoke. On my first fire as chief, we pulled the fan and set it up during interior atttack It cleared the heat and smoke out so the attack crew could go in and get to the seat of the fire quicker and safer. It helped save a good portion of the home and cut down greatly on the amount of water used.
I have also seen it used in a way in which it pushed the fire up a balloon structure and into the attic very quickly and probabaly did more damage than good. It is not going to work in every situation and training and size-up is the key. It is a very useful tool during initial attack if you have the training and take the time to do a good size-up.
In our area, it seems like there are poarches in the way alot of times in the area that you want to place the fan. They are too short to get a good "seal" on the door and if you move it off the poarch, you can't get a seal that way either. Again, it goes back to a proper size-up.
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Permalink Reply by Jason R on
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If you are not an exstremily agressive department dont do it takes lots of training and lots of up keep to use ppa!!!! We like to call it a chief assisted burn, And we are an aggressive department. i appoligies for miss spelling and poor sentence structure iam a fire fighter lol!!!!
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Jason.
The benefits of PPA are tremendous when you have taken the time to educate yourself and your department. Aggressive or not it is much more beneficial for your firefighters and civilians, take a look at positivepressureattack.com and review some of the resources. If you have had training and still can call it a "chief assist burn"; your training was inadequate. I have been doing PPA for over 14 years....we have tested and taught this all over the world to over 10,000 firefighters and I have as of yet to receive any negative comments regarding the tactic from someone who has taken our training. If fact not a week goes by without getting correspondence regarding outstanding and impressive results at an incident. If some are using it with great results and you can't seem to manage it,,,maybe there is something missing.
Thanks
Kriss
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Permalink Reply by ee779 on
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We've used both PPV and PPA, from what I've seen both serve thier purpose WHEN USED PROPERLY! Obviously, training is the top priority when using ANY tactic in firefighting, as far as using PPA, all of the companies on scene have to be on the same page when you're setting up to use it. Simply because it's going to push the fire. If this is done wrong you're going to do more harm than good. I'm not too fond of internet courses simply, because you don't get the hands on practice. You might want to check the website for your state's fire academy, and take the class for PPA in the burn building.
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no iam just saying that its a tactic that requires ongoing training. i think it is a great resource. But it can also change the out come of your fire in a matter of minutes if you do not train and understand the concept and the type of situtations that chargeing a build with air can cause. Its not some thing that i would recommend just going out and trying. I have seen a couple fires go really bad because their was to many openings in the structure and it cause fire spread but i have also seen a good command structure in a well trained department put it to great use and knocked down a fire very quickly, And that is a pat on my departments back i have an awsome Chief and battallion and i work under some of the greats and highly educated capts. we train very hard. Iam also a new career fire fighter who does admit to not knowing everything but in my last 16 years have been on three different part time and volenteer departments that should have stuck to hydr venting will still under heavey fire condition due to poor training and a basic level of knoledge. sorry sorry for rambling on and my first comment about the chief assisted burn i was half trying to be funny and the rest was just first time disscussion iam brand new on here and just trying to get my feet wet!
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i agree one hundred percent that was the point i was trying to pass on once again very new to the network and just getting my feet wet!
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Because firefighters are going to be standing, and if they entered in heavy conditions they have not sufficiently cleared the area between them and the blower. they could be standing at what may become an exhaust. You may also be interested in taking a look at our webcast we did not fire engineering a month or so ago. It is still available on line. I hate to sell crap so I usually don't mention it but you seem interested, so you may also be interested in our book that is available through our web site. penwell, or amazon.
Thanks
Kriss
Is there anyway I could get a copy of this video?
Thanks
Kriss
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Permalink Reply by Charles H. Brokmeier on
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I have seen the PPA senario and demonstrations. They work and work extremely well. The only problem is that timing and conditions have to be perfect. In 35 years on the line I can tell you that this is not a practical concept, at least not in this city fire fighters eyes.
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Permalink Reply by Art "ChiefReason" Goodrich on
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And that is my point exactly.
I'm sorry, but what I see are some vollie departments that occasionally get together and "train". With something as critical as is being discussed, you have to do it; repeat; do it ; repeat; do it; repeat...and on and on. On many of these departments, basic firemanship tasks aren't yet mastered, so something new comes along and it is introduced, but not stressed or they forget that part about fan placement and exhaust locations and the "don't stand between the fan and its exhaust opening" or "never introduce PPV to FIND the fire".
I could see some use of it on departments that are together daily and train often, but for the weekender? Nope.
And for the record, I am with a volunteer department that has 15 training meetings a year in addition to an outside curriculum of training as well. We respond to a hundred calls a year. Very few are structural.
Hope that helps the discussion.
Art
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