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Firefighters as Unarmed Agents of Law Enforcement
I was at the National Fire Academy last week and Dr. Onieal pulled me aside to discuss something that he found troubling. Apparently there are those in government who believe that firefighters should be doing more to help combat crime and terrorism by reporting all criminal activity that we come across when we enter peoples homes and businesses.
Now I am not soft on crime - and I do not believe Dr. Onieal is either - but a formal policy of training fire and EMS personnel to identify and report criminal activity - concerns me. We go into peoples homes and businesses and for the most part are welcomed as helpers. We do not want people hesitating to call us for fear we may have them arrested. Nor do we want to be shot at or attacked (any more than we currently are) because someone sees us as the enemy. At the same time I am not suggesting that we openly tolerate criminal activity. But there is a fine line.
I am working on a article on this subject for Firehouse Magazine and I am looking for your input. Should firefighters be trained and required to report criminal activity?
Note: The US Supreme Court has said the firefighters may enter a building without a search warrant to extinguish a fire, under the exigent circumstances exception to the 4th Amendment. It is this "loophole" that certain folks want to exploit.
Now I am not soft on crime - and I do not believe Dr. Onieal is either - but a formal policy of training fire and EMS personnel to identify and report criminal activity - concerns me. We go into peoples homes and businesses and for the most part are welcomed as helpers. We do not want people hesitating to call us for fear we may have them arrested. Nor do we want to be shot at or attacked (any more than we currently are) because someone sees us as the enemy. At the same time I am not suggesting that we openly tolerate criminal activity. But there is a fine line.
I am working on a article on this subject for Firehouse Magazine and I am looking for your input. Should firefighters be trained and required to report criminal activity?
Note: The US Supreme Court has said the firefighters may enter a building without a search warrant to extinguish a fire, under the exigent circumstances exception to the 4th Amendment. It is this "loophole" that certain folks want to exploit.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Troy on
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I think that this is a bad idea for fact that on some calls "being neutral" helps us by going to report everything people will loose faith and trust in ems and fd and will be less likely to call for help
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Permalink Reply by Spanner 122 on
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I completely agree with you. There are times when you have no choice to call the police, or at the very least Fire Prevention and allow them to call the police. I've been to a couple of calls that caused great concern for the welfare of either the people living in the home or those around it and we had no choice.
On the other hand, walking into someone's home and seeing that they had just smoked a joint, or something of the sort, it pains me to say it, but no, that is not our responsibility (even though it is technically everyone's responsibility and where I see the juxtaposition with the issue). As you have stated, we do not wish to be the bad guy, we are welcome to help others when needed.
The good thing about the dispatch system in my city is the "tiered response", basically you get everyone to most calls. Fire and Police to anything none medical or trauma related and the ability to call in EMS on those calls; Fire, Police and EMS to any call with potential injuries (no police or paramedics to simple alarm calls, if they turn out to be true alarms, they will be dispatched). If we see something in the house, we can simply suggest police investigate without looking like the bad guy.
Maybe if "the government" would like to see more police presence in high risk areas, or high risk calls, they should dole out the money and allow more police to respond with the fire departments. I'm sure it would be cheaper to research and implement than training all firefighters to "seek out the bad guy!"
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Permalink Reply by jpzxzp47mmhn on
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fuck no i say thats why were firefighters if wanted to do that we would be cops thats why its two diffrent jobs
i dont wanna be the cop at school and like you said whos gonna call the fd if were also cops when most people are afriad of cops?
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Permalink Reply by Tony Leonard,Jr. on
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I think it is a bad idea.The Public has a certain unspoken trust with us.They see us as one of them and feel comfortable with us coming into thier homes.The only people i've seen that wont let us in already think we're cops.These people often have substance abuse issues as it is.They guy across the hall is like that,telling his kids not to talk to me or I will have them arrested.Ignorance of Authority is mostly seen towards Police and Courts,this will make that our problem too. A Problem We Don't Need.I believe since most of us Volunteers are "FIRE POLICE",this is what they are trying to exploit.Since we (in N.Y. State) are Sworn In Peace Officers.But Could you imagine trying to get a warrant in time to save a life? I Can't.It would be like asking Boss Hogg to wear a black suit.
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Permalink Reply by Wesley King on
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I agree with everyone else. We got enough on our plate to handle. Firefighters do more than their share as is. Not only do we put out fires, but we assist the E.M.S. on medical calls. We assist the police in traffic control, M.V.A.'s, school shootings, road blocks, etc. When you think bout what a firefighter's job description is, you realize that we already have our hands in little bit of every branch of service. So why make our job more stressful and put us in further danger? I agree with Spanner122, if I see something that is endangering another bystander or something, then I would let the cops know to check it out. But 9 out of 10 of our calls usually involve at least one or two police units with us if not more.
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Permalink Reply by eric seaton on
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I agree, last night we were putting up smoke detectors and we came to a house that had three small kids. They did not want to let us in. I told them that we where not cops and did not care, that we just wanted to put up the detectors to protect the kids. They let us in.
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Permalink Reply by Tom on
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First off let me say , " Let's keep in mind there are Bad police officers as well as Bad firefighters, and Bad EMS workers " Note the police officers in 911 died just like our own firefighters and EMS Brothers. They are as Honorable as we are when it comes to giving your life for another.
Now having said , this can be a broad subject and communities across the US. operate in different ways. Consider this " TOO BE AN UNARMED AGENT" this is like saying we will make police officers unarmed firefighters and EMS Agents! Can you imagine the certification night mare that would be created from such a mindless thought ? There would only be 1 out of 1000 that WOULD or Could do our Job. and the same the other way around.
In regards to" Reporting Crime " that's a no brain-er, anyone with a telephone that cares about our society can Report Crime ! So personally I see all this as a "non issue".
The people in Government that are law makers have No Ideal how we work as a team each having its mission and cooperation of each other. Have you ever seen one of these Dreamers in the back of your Ambulance making life or death decisions? or one of them chasing down some one in a dark alley while they are being shot at ? How about one of these Dream makers on the end of a fire hose with fire all around them or Hazard materials Operations just to mention a few. I can answer this with a BIG NO !! so my answer as you already know by now is NO, NO, NO.
Sorry for the long explanation , You now have more INPUT. " GOD Bless All Public Safety Workers "
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Permalink Reply by Lawrence W on
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I agree with you, for the most part...
There should be a fine line not to be crossed here. If the violation is a direct threat to fire or life safety, then yes, it is our job to report this infraction to the appropriate enforcement agency. If there is a flagrant violation of the law (such as walking into a Meth lab for a burn call) then sure, it needs to be reported. Keep your eyes open for anything that could threaten your safety. These are things that need to be reported and taken care of. Otherwise, we do not want to discourage folks from calling for help when they need it for fear of being "caught" stealing the neighbors cable for example.
We are not unarmed police officers - our world is very different from theirs.
Be safe.
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Permalink Reply by Ron Maddox on
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Well, I've always herd that if they would have scored higher on the test that cops could have been a firefighter... HA.HA. But really, unless they want us to carry a wepon and arrest people (and if I wanted to that, I would have been a cop), it's just stupid to insist that we report on crimes that do not pertain to a victim (such as battery, child abuse, or elder abuse).
The other thing is that the officers either do not belive you or just don't want the hassle. Case in Point. About three years ago we were called to a possible overdose. When we arrived the persons mother was ther and advised us that he lived with a person that had active TB. When we entered the room there were needles and heroin cook spoons and "black tar looking substance in balloons all around the room. We told the officer that responded to the scene (but would not come near the house) about what we saw and the only reaction we got was "F--- That, they could have killed someone and we wouldn't go in there, thats your job to get sick and die.
This is just my thoughts but I'm sure there are people that will agree.
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Permalink Reply by Greenman on
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There is a distinct difference between entering a residence to render aid, extinguish a fire, etc.. and entering for the purpose of searching, or gathering evidence.
I have no issues reporting something I see during the course of a call if it looks criminal, or suspicious...drug labs, bomb making supplies, bank bags with ink-bomb stained money on a table etc... But I fear being dispatched to an occupancy because someone thinks it's a clever way to "get around" that pesky 4th Amendment.
What if FFs were dispatched to a residence and told the "victim" was hurt at the bottom of the basement stairs because the LEOs suspected the house was being used as a pipebomb factory, but didn't have enough evidence for a warrant. Now if mad bombers are anything like meth lab operators, there could be all kinds of booby-traps awaiting the FFS...who would be unsuspecting vicitms if a pipebomb goes off when they force entry to the kitchen door thinking a 70-yr old grandma is laying on the basement floor!
In my opinion, we have Law Enforcement Agancies for a reason and they should execute their own searches and keep everything above board.
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Permalink Reply by ee779 on
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I'm kind of unsure how to interpret what they want us (firefighters) to be looking for. If we go in for an business inspection, be it a store or locally we also inspect rental properties for working smoke alarms, and we come across a meth lab, the by all means I say report it! On the other hand, if we come across a pot plant, I might not simply, as someone else said we don't want the fire dept. being looked at as the "bad guys"
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Permalink Reply by Jeff Betz on
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For the most part I am a NO vote here in relation to "extra powers" or duties. However, I have called in our building and rental inspectors for obvious hazards to families in homes that were not safe for them to be there. Heck, one time I found a kid in his little walker with the front melted half-off, only to find a gas fireplace with no guards at all and the kid had been in front of it trying to stay warm...not cool. I have also sent an e-mail to our PD to give them a "heads-up" on some things we have seen, although very seldom. Beyond that, I feel our job is to maintain what we do now; help others when they call and clear the scene.
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