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STUPID
Well here it is, and I would love to hear what everyone thinks of this. Let me set the scenario.
A suppression team enters a structure ahead of the truck company and begins an attack. Half way down a hallway there is fire rolling over the head of an open doorway. The nozzleman hits the ceiling in the hall then advances the line to the doorway where he can see the seat of the fire and begins to knock it down from the hall. Once it is managed, he enters the doorway, places the nozzle to straight stream, does a few circles on the ceiling and proceeds to sweep the walls of the room looking for a window to vent from. Once he finds the window he is able to knock it out with the stream and begins the vent process.
The man on the nozzle happens to be a friend of mine and the person who told the story. This was in fact backed up by unsolicited accounts from others that were there. The problem is that there was also a Captain present at the burn and he dressed down the nozzleman for his actions.
His point was that the nozzleman should not have hit the ceiling in the hallway, nor should he have fought the fire from the hall. This Captain said that he should have gone directly into the room and up on the fire to put it out with as little water as possible. Captain X also stated that using the stream to find a window was stupid and said that he had never heard of that.
The actions of the nozzleman seemed textbook enough to me, (I'm speaking as a senior fireman with an awful lot of experience), and the comments from the young Captain seem like the type of advice to get you killed. I would love to hear from everyone, especially the older veterans on what you think of this.
I've added this.... There was an unlimited water supply. They were on a good hydrant with a large main and 1500 gal. on the truck. There is a twist to this that will make it better, (or worse), but I'll keep it close to my vest for a little while.
A suppression team enters a structure ahead of the truck company and begins an attack. Half way down a hallway there is fire rolling over the head of an open doorway. The nozzleman hits the ceiling in the hall then advances the line to the doorway where he can see the seat of the fire and begins to knock it down from the hall. Once it is managed, he enters the doorway, places the nozzle to straight stream, does a few circles on the ceiling and proceeds to sweep the walls of the room looking for a window to vent from. Once he finds the window he is able to knock it out with the stream and begins the vent process.
The man on the nozzle happens to be a friend of mine and the person who told the story. This was in fact backed up by unsolicited accounts from others that were there. The problem is that there was also a Captain present at the burn and he dressed down the nozzleman for his actions.
His point was that the nozzleman should not have hit the ceiling in the hallway, nor should he have fought the fire from the hall. This Captain said that he should have gone directly into the room and up on the fire to put it out with as little water as possible. Captain X also stated that using the stream to find a window was stupid and said that he had never heard of that.
The actions of the nozzleman seemed textbook enough to me, (I'm speaking as a senior fireman with an awful lot of experience), and the comments from the young Captain seem like the type of advice to get you killed. I would love to hear from everyone, especially the older veterans on what you think of this.
I've added this.... There was an unlimited water supply. They were on a good hydrant with a large main and 1500 gal. on the truck. There is a twist to this that will make it better, (or worse), but I'll keep it close to my vest for a little while.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Art "ChiefReason" Goodrich on
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According to the accounts of somewhere there, a vent team was not available at the time.
Art
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Permalink Reply by MIKE TOIKA on
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Sounds like once again, book smart young officers not having any REAl experience in firefighting. The nozzleman did absolutely the right thing, across the board.
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Permalink Reply by Ryan on
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i personnaly do not see any problem with what the nozzleman did, except yeah he should have had the nozzle of straight stream before he even entered the building and also he shoulda never shot out the window with the hoseline, but i would have to agree with evrything else he did. Hydraulic ventilation is a very good way at ventilation if done all correctly and that should be one of the only times you switch from a straight stream to a fog stream
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Fog versus straight....if he needs to cool an area, fog is the correct stream of choice, until he gets to the seat of the fire. As far as using it to vent, if he broke out the window with the nozzle, because the truckies weren't there yet, again no problem...remove heat, create better visibility, problem gets better. Basic firefighting 101. Also using a fog stream, through a window to vent (mechanical ventilation) is still a tactic taught today. Again, cudo's to the nozzleman for being aggressive, and knowing his job
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Permalink Reply by BTFD604 on
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I'm not a veteran of the fire service, but sometimes you just have to lay down the book on some things and just use common sense. I do know that if you're in a room with fire coming over your head and you try to fight it like that, all that heat will bank down on the crew, especially using that circular pattern. From the sounds of things, the nozzleman probably kept that room from flashing, and even if it did, at least the crew would be out of the room when it did.
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Permalink Reply by Moose on
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I agree with you also mike, but with the hose its "Hydraulic Ventilation", Mechanical is with either negative or positive pressure ventilator fans.
One question for most of you who disagree with taking out a window with the stream, simply out of curiosity for myself, why do you disagree? If there is an adequate water supply, and no outside vent team there yet, what reason do you have to not take the window with the stream? Just curious, lol.
Good points by all, a good discussion here.
Moose
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Permalink Reply by Jim Seargent on
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Ryan writes....."Hydraulic ventilation is a very good way at ventilation if done all correctly and that should be one of the only times you switch from a straight stream to a fog stream"
One of the only times??
I'm curious as to why one would say that? I've been a Truckie for ever, but we too have to learn suppression. I "grew up" in a smooth bore geared department and even they knew the value of a fog or modified pattern. For penetration, give me a smooth bore. For all else, give me a combination tip. Have you ever had to push fire down a hallway? Once the other end is vented you can't make a push without opening up the pattern. Try it one day in training with a straight stream. Now I know all of the other technical guys out there, (like myself), will post back about how todays "straight stream" is simply a modified fog so I just want to say that I do know the difference between that and a smooth bore tip. One of the benefits of modern combination nozzles is that you have the ability to "set" the size of the water droplets and sometimes gallonage, (however I hate those suicide rings), to match the desired amount of heat absorbtion you want to obtain rather than the laborious process of "breaking" the water we used to have to go through. A point to illustrate......Take the same scenario as posted, but add a sound doorway to the equation. With a fog pattern I can size up the room in about half a second and adjust it to the size I feel best, (yes we can do this in the dark by feeling how deep the seat is in the nozzle), stuff the pipe in the doorway, run just more than enough water into the ceiling and pulling the door closed, (if I'm really worried about turning into lobsterman I can tie a quick piece of whatever I have to the doorknob so the closing can be done remotely), At that point I can go for coffee or light a cigar because the droplets and steam are going to do all of the work for me. To do the same thing with a straight stream is of course possible, but the simple effect of the time involved makes it hurt a bunch more as the steam comes down around me and starts to tickle my ears. TAKE AWAY THE HEAT. If you do it can't flash. If you do it with steam, ventilation or divine intervention you will always be a happier firefighter, and nothing helps make that happen, (where stream shape is concerned), like a modified fog. End of sermon.
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We used to do the same technique in Northport but with High Pressure fog nozzles. They were excellent for that application. With the high pressure it makes more steam. My father used to tell me about that all the time, as he was a Captain of the Engine Company down there and he loved the high pressure fog tips for that reason. When short staffed, an engine crew could shoot about 4-5 seconds worth of fog into the room, close the door, and it would knock enough of the fire down to allow a small crew to handle it untill help arrived.
I agree, you need both straight stream and fog patterns.
Moose
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Permalink Reply by Allen Wahlstrom on
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Probably going to get flamed on this but...
Stait streams from combo nozzles are effective, but not always the right chioce, it's all about what you are fighting and how deep seeded the fire is or is not.
Our brothers in the Northeast are still in love with strait bore nozzles, and for some applications they are great, but we have advanced beyond rubber jackets, hip boots and cotton hose. Why is it the nozzle and pattern choices are still so pre 1980's up there?
Points of the discussion are:
1. Was the Captain right in his assesment?
2. Was the firefighters actions appropriate?
3. Were the Captains actions after the knockdown proper?
4. Was using a hose stream to knock out a window acceptable?
Not haivng been there its not my place to say, but from the discussions points, Id say the Captain needs to trust his men to do their job, protect THEIR lives and then property. So Not cooling the room is a bad call.
The tipman seems to have done the right thing, maybe not exactly how I would have, but we all have our own way, so good on him. Everyone went home that night...nuff said.
The Captain was absolutely wrong in how he approached the situation after and that will most likely have lasting effects on his ability to lead.
The window...knock it out with whatever is the safest.
If ther eis a ground team outside, no not with a hose stream, but as the only company on scene...why not.
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Permalink Reply by Scott on
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I am going to have to say they were both right. I have been in the fire serivce for a while now and the way the fire fighter did it was text book the way I came up in the fire service. With that said I talked to one of the training officers of my department the other day and he was telling me (The new age of firefighting). He was telling me that the Combo attack that I learned in rookie school in no longer being tought in the new rookie classes. So to me this sounds like a battle between old and new. The challenge is going to be getting the old dog to learn new tricks and getting the new officer to understand it is hard to change your ways when you have been doing the same thing the same way for such along thing.
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Permalink Reply by John Kriska on
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In the days of reduced personnel on apparatus, in both paid professional and non-paid professional departments, we need to get smarter in the way we do things. Throughout this whole thread I see "there was no vent team on the scene", well..yes there was, they were in side. Let me ask a question, once we enter a smoke filled building and crawl on our hands and knees in zero visiblity. dragging an attack line, how long does it take to locate the fire and attack it. You be the judge of the time element. Keep in mind, just because you are inside the fire building does not mean you are being effective. In my view, we can use that "time" to be more efective by doing the following: Captain: perform a 360 degree size-up, locate the seat of the fire and vent the fire area (Firefighter One Ventilation practices accomplished). Pipeman: pull the attack line, perform forcible entry when ordered to do so after the Captain completes their size-up. Driver/Engineer: Remove a PPV blower off the apparatus, deliver to the point opf entry, start and allow to run, return to the apparatus and charge the attack line. All of these jobs are done at the same time. When the Captain returns to the point of entry, positions the blower to pressurize the building, the crew enters. Using this system pushes the fire back where it came from, back into the burn area and out the window. Effective ventilation has a direct affect on trapped victims and the safety of firefighters. Does this method work, you bet, been using it since 1987. One caution, it is not 100%, meaning it may not be able to be used 100% of the time.
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Permalink Reply by ENGINECREW CAPT. aka Pres.FHMC on
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UP THERE????? NY State chiming in here on this one...We have straight stream AND combo nozzles.And indoor plumbing...
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