Ok here's one for debate

There is a push in our area, especially with the private training companies, to stop using safety knots with the fig. 8. There point of view is that the figure 8 , even if improperly tied will fail before any safety knot can become involved. I find it hard to stop. It's a habit that was ingrained in me from my days as a rookie but i have seen the videos of pull tests and can see their point. What are you guys doing?

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Permalink Reply by Roger Simmons on September 28, 2007 at 2:07pm

Yeah they have a piont. BUT! When you are hanging in a negative at about 150 to 200 ft on a long line hooked to a fig 8, My question is- Are you stupid enough....I mean willing enough to take that chance???

Permalink Reply by Marc Allen on September 28, 2007 at 2:23pm

Well I kinda thing that everything we do in the fire service is based on calculated risks. I'm just starting to wounder about the time taken to tie the safety vs gaining access to the patient/victim. Now before i get flamed, I know that nothing in a high angle rescue invironment is quick but time for the victim is a premium. I have been a member of a local cave rescue group and cavers don't have any problems doing single line rescues and very complicated confined space rescues with what the fire service would freak out about. With that said Yes i would feel comfortable enough to hang upside down at 600 ft and work a rescue. I feel like NFPA has made the fire service build there systems for overkill.

Permalink Reply by David Owens on October 9, 2007 at 9:46am

Personally and from things I have read I do not believe that a figure eight will come untied period. On the other hand I do not believe in taking safety out of anything. It takes all of two seconds to tie a safety knot so how much time would it really save.

Permalink Reply by BrownEyes81 on October 16, 2007 at 1:24pm

Regardless of believing a safety after a fig 8 is beneficial or not - shouldn't we be in the habit of tying a safety on the knots we trust our life to? Owens is right, it takes two seconds to get into a habit that could really pay off.

Permalink Reply by Randy D. on November 3, 2007 at 1:31pm

This is the first I have heard of this. So you are just supposed to tie off with NO safty on your figure eight?

Permalink Reply by Marc Allen on November 3, 2007 at 2:59pm

That's what they are teaching. They show videos with a fig. 8 being pull tested and it never pulls out. Not even when tied wrong. (undressed and crossing itself ect. ) I think I have decided that I can tie it quick enough with a safety. I am going to keep tying a safety, #1 so I don't forget to tie one on another knot #2 for the mental factor.

Permalink Reply by Firegal77 on November 8, 2007 at 2:24pm

I feel totally comfortable in a properly tied figure eight without a safety knot, but it takes 2 seconds to tie one, and if it makes you feel warm and fuzzy I say go for it! It certainly isnt going to hurt anything, and as far as adding time, a few seconds isnt going to make a difference.

Permalink Reply by Mike Sullivan on November 25, 2007 at 9:29pm

While I agree that a Fig 8 even if poorly tied is very unlikely to come undone......... adding a safety to it just helps make sure of that....... with regards to the added time involved in tying a safety, I see this as negligible........normally under a minute in bad conditions.

Permalink Reply by Jason Brooks on January 14, 2008 at 8:57am

If you look at where the knot would most likely fail, and has in pull tests, the back u not is worthless anyhow. The know will ost likely fail at the bight end, not the knot. So what is your back up knot accomplishing. If you are concerned, no prolem with safety here, use a secondary attachment point. That is the only way you can be assured of your safety in a failure. This does not necessarily mean a belay line either. You can be attached two your system, depending on what you are doing with webbinr or accessory cords also. We tend to use a lot of bowlines lately, We are even starting to use long tail bowlines as our secondary attachment for pick offs instead of daisy chains. A bowline with a safety knt tends to be easier to tie and untie when necessary.

Permalink Reply by lutan1 on January 26, 2008 at 12:27am

Figure 8's have no place in rope rescue,under any circumstance. You'll never convince me otherwise...

Permalink Reply by lutan1 on January 26, 2008 at 6:35pm

Sorry- I misread the post- I meant the Figure 8 descender. Sorry!

Now talking about the knot- of course it has a place (the whole family of 8 knots does), but I too don't tie any safety knots with them.

Permalink Reply by Jason on February 6, 2008 at 7:29pm