The Social Network & Community JUST for Firefighters
Dash mounted camera's
Whats your thought on dash mounted cameras? I think we all have a story about driving to the scene and that one motorist (or multiple) that add to stress levels. With a camera we could use the film to assist in drivers training. I also think if you have any extra manpower you can have someone on the crew to turn the camera to video the action on the scene of whatever your call is. Again the training aspect alone would be unmeasurable. I know in todays world the possability of lawsuits would make this a hard sell for some, but we are there for the job, and any assistance a camera could give us for fireground operations, and critique would be awesome. Anyone out there have a camera on board, and if so whats do you think?
Replies to This Discussion
-
Permalink Reply by lutan1 on
-
I beleive the wearing of helmets AND travelling with them in the cab of the truck has been banned over here- too many risks....
-
Permalink Reply by Brian Dumser on
-
"If you think when you turn on your lights that traffic should part for you like the Red Sea did for Moses, it aint gonna happen."
Siren, your killin me...LOL
-
Permalink Reply by Engine 32 Capt. on
-
Siren - you kill me....I smile everytime I read something from you.
That being said, here's my take on this subject (this might be a little looooooong - you've been warned).
We have a dash mounted camera on our Engine. But, we are the only platoon that uses it. It is my camera and I take it home with me every shift. I built a base and mounted a small tripod to it and it fits nicely on the dash. If you've looked at my videos, you can see what we've captured with it.
Personally, I like the idea. Sure there is a legal question as to whether or not what you film can be used as evidence. I think we all know it could be (and probably would be). So you have to either be prepared to explain some things or be able to delete really fast...LOL (the camera's with the hard-drives instead of tape are nice 8-D).
If you have a driver who maybe doesn't necessary meet the safety standards when driving you shouldn't be worried about what might get caught on tape. That problem should have been fixed before he/she was doing any more driving. If there is an accident, one of two things are going to happen: 1. The investigation will determine that your driver was not at fault (and the tape can help that), or 2. The investigation will determine that your driver was at fault. These conclusions can and will be drawn regardless of whether or not there is video. They've been doing that for years. If it is determined that your rig was going too fast when it ran over the top of grandma's '72 Impala then the video isn't going to make your situation any worse.
My Sergeant will typically grab the camera off the rig for me. In one of our videos we made an apartment fire and he set it on the back of the rig, out of the way. He was able to keep an eye on it and it worked out just fine. We were actually surprised at how well the footage turned out. This is especially easy to do with the base we made for the tripod. It's about 1'x1' square and allows the camera to stand on it's own. We also got a short shower curtain rod - the kind you unscrew to make longer to secure it to either wall of the shower - We put one end on the base and extend it to the roof of the cab. It's very sturdy and keeps the base from moving.
Most everyone has covered the pros to the camera, i.e. being able to share what you saw when you first arrived, faces in the crowd, etc.
Another thing to consider is morale. Whenever we got 'good video', got it back to the house and edited it, it really made the guys feel good. We have a few on YouTube, and so what if that's where they end up? Don't do or say anything you don't want somebody else to hear or see and you won't have anything to worry about. If something undesirable makes it on there, edit it out. Trust me, we've had to clean up a few cuss words here and there. Windows Movie Maker is a great program and it's very easy to use.
But seeing the finished product can give a crew a real boost. We don't get to see what's going on outside when we're inside. Making a good job and getting home safe is priority 1, but when you get to sit back and watch what you did and can make you feel pretty good. Also, we don't have a high volume of fire duty, so it's nice to be able to go back and re-watch something.
Someone else mentioned training. This is also a good tool for that. After the incident is over it's nice to be able to look back at what happened and critique it, learn from it and adjust accordingly. Sure you can do this by just talking about it, but it's a lot easier to drive a point home when you're sitting there watching it.
On that note, however, be prepared to be criticized instead of critiqued. There are always going to be some arm-chair quaterbacks out there who think they know everything because they've apparently done everything (just ask 'em). Initially, this type of response to our videos angered us. But the more we thought about it, the more we realized that if a video was published by us, it was done so because
-
-
wow - I used up too much space....LOL. That's a first for me.
Part 2
...it was done so because we were proud of it and wanted to share with like minded individuals who might enjoy watching it as much as we did.
One word of caution though - be very careful of what you do with footage which might contain images of victims. If you make a car wreck, or some other type of incident and for some reason capture a 'vic' on video, delete it. I would worry more about getting sued for this than anything else.
Ok - I think I've worn out my welcome here. I warned you.
Happy filming.
Whew! I need a glass of ice water.
-
Permalink Reply by Greenman on
-
I love the idea.
If you've read some of my other posts, I advocate a sealed bumper-mounted unit which would turn-on when the vehicle is dispatched and remain recording until the warning lights are turned-off. The video would then be automatically uploaded via a Wi-Fi system at the Firehouse to Law Enforcement and to the Training division of the Fire Department. The LEOs could then issue citations to drivers who fail to yield the right of way to the Emergency Vehicle(s) and the Training division could use the video to improve apparatus operators' training through close-calls, examples of proper operation, and sometimes using examples of improper operation. In the event of an accident fault could be much more easily determined by LEOs.
By continuing to record throughout the incident, events such as building collapses, back drafts, cars running over hoses, violent bystanders/victims/perpetrators, even crowd shots may be captured on video and audio for LEOs, Training Officers, accident investigators and even arson investigators to review.
A few "Failure to yield" citations will pay for the equipment in short time, hopefully before drivers get wise and start pulling over when they see/hear a responding emergency vehicle!
Short of that, I think a dash-mounted digital video camera can perform many of the training functions I described above, but would lack much of the weight as evidence for law-enforcement since non Law Enforcement people would have access to the evidence; Although it could probably still be admissible in many courts.
My concerns about dash-mounted cameras are these: Someone has to actually turn it on for it to be useful, and that is not something we should be distracted by while mounting the apparatus and rolling-out. So make sure you have your vehicle maintenance shop install an "automatic on" function tied to the warning lights, or something similar when you install the camera. Secondly, the camera needs to actually be mounted in the vehicle...not simply Velcro’d to the dashboard. Invest in a Tech-mount or similar professional camera mount for your rig and mount the camera to an "OS Bar" or bolted to the dash...again make sure you have permission to do so, and have a pro do it. It should be treated like every other piece of equipment on the apparatus, and jerry-rigged.
For that matter, maybe a roof-mounted camera in a lexan dome would be a good idea too. IC could use it for seeing multiple exposures while commanding the incident, especially if every rig had one. It could also be used to pan crowds, and zoom in on rescue situations as needed. Also, many RVs and buses, even some sedans have "back-up" cameras, perhaps these should be installed on apparatus as well, both for backing the vehicle and for recording enroute and on the scene. If all of thise data is stored on a hard drive and uploaded after the incident it could prove invaluable later on. Maybe with this much data, the Wi-Fi wouldn't work, but a simple Hard Drive swap upon Return to Quarters would work too. (i.e. pull the HD with the last run on it out and put a clean drive into the apparatus; then plug the full HD into a computer to upload the data.
GM
-
-
Siren,
The whole point of the "sealed unit" is to take the Fire Department out of the process. If the equipment is installed, maintained and processed by the police department, it is essentially a "red light camera" on a rolling platform.
The reason the Driver and Officer have to be called into court now is because they are really the only witnesses to the crime. With a video there is evidence, and the system is automated. In many jurisdictions the infrastructure is already there for this system, vis-à-vis the "red light camera" system. Not many of those tickets ever go to court because of the visual evidence of the crime. Have you ever seen a ticket from a “red Light Camera?” They’re really neat (unless you’re the one getting it), it comes in the mail with a picture of your car running the red light and a zoom shot of your license plate; the owner of the vehicle gets the ticket regardless of who is driving. While the law may have to be modified to allow this type of enforcement for something other than “failure to obey a traffic control device”, can you really say it’s not worth trying? It didn’t take very long for the “red light cameras” to get most people to stop trying to beat red lights, I believe this idea would have the same effect of those drivers who don’t pull-over, pull-out in front of, or otherwise create a dangerous situation for responding emergency vehicles.
Although I understand your "in the box" thinking about this problem, this is a new way to attack the problem, not the same way it's been done before. "Failure to yield" becomes a huge problem for a municipality every time there is a Fire Apparatus vs. POV collision. It only takes one collision with a POV, with any ensuing court action, to severely hurt a City's budget for years to come; not to mention the human cost of a collision (remember Massillon, Ohio 6 May 2008?). Right now the only way to enforce the law, and thus make drivers follow the law, is to have a LEO follow the Emergency apparatus while responding...or for there to be a collision where the civilian driver was clearly at fault.
No, it is not something that "generates money" in the long run, but it can pay for itself, allowing the municipality to recoup itself investment quickly, and saving money in the long run by preventing even a single collision while the apparatus is responding to a call.
GM
-
-
and saving money in the long run by preventing even a single collision while the apparatus is responding to a call.
It cant PREVENT, it can assist with reducing by educating. The only way to PREVENT is to remove the cars off the road or keep the truck in the station and not respond...
This is where the "Hiearchy of Controls" in risk management kick in- Elimination, Substitution, Enginnering, Administration and finally PPE.
-
-
No, he hasn't.
If you have a driver that disregards department SOP's regarding the operation of apparatus he/she shouldn't be driving. Folks, this talk of issuing tickets to people who don't pull over or apparatus operators who don't obey the law is rediculous. If the cops don't see the offense, they can't do anything. If you, as an Officer, want to take the case to court, more power to you. Good luck with your career. But as an Officer, you shouldn't have to worry about what your Driver is doing.
I think you all are missing the point.
The camera needs to be controlled by the company. It does NOT delay our response if I manually turn the camera on before we roll. While the camera is automating I am putting on my gear.
Automated cameras serve no purpose. As I stated in my long-winded post earlier (which apparently none of you read) automated cameras prove nothing. Think about what you're saying...As I stated before camera's will neither help nor hinder an investigation into an MVA. Physics will take care of itself.
Once again...if your apparatus operator is functioning in a manner inconsistent with your depaartment SOP's or local laws, remove them from the wheel.
As I stated earlier, if your driver f*s up, it's your fault. An automated camera doesn't help you. It doesn't do anything.
If you want a dash-cam, put it on your truck and record whatever you think is necessary.
-
-
Once again...if your apparatus operator is functioning in a manner inconsistent with your depaartment SOP's or local laws, remove them from the wheel.
Unfortunately my friend this does not happen or won't happen.
I've been invovled in incidents where it goes down the path of "he says-she says" and achieves nothing. Whilst I'm not advocating ticketing our own drivers, I still beleive that Capt 723 made a good point when he said, " I think that we are too concerned with what the public is doing and not concerned enough with what we are doing. We have a duty to respond to emergencies in a safe and responsible manner that will ensure the safety of the public as well as the personnel riding in the engine, ambulance or whatever."
I firmly believe that MANY emergency drivers will change their habits if they know that "big brother" is watching....
But as an Officer, you shouldn't have to worry about what your Driver is doing.
You're right, just like as an Officer we shouldn;t have to worry that our members are wearing their setabelts, or their corect PPE, are accounted for on the scene and many other examples- but we do. It's our job and potentially our arse on line...
-
-
You know in many jurisdictions LEOs don't have any control over the dash cams in their cruisers.
Why? Because in the past when they have made mistakes, they have tampered with the recording, and thus tampered with evidence. A camera controlled by the Officer/Driver of the apparatus is fine for training purposes (they're reltively cheap and provide great feedback for all concerned), but they do not provide accountability of the operator.officer of the vehicle. There is no chain of evidence when there is an MVA, close call, or other event.
You're right, physics will prove 99 out of 100 accidents, but there are some that do come down to "He said, he said." How many times does a case involve hours or days of expert testimony based on physics, only to have the jury decide the case in 10 seconds when they see a video of the incident?
Bottom line is this: when it comes to Training or operational purposes, a crew-controlled Dash cam (or other camera) is fine, but when it come sto enforcing the law the camera needs to belong to the COPs and be controlled by them, for both ticketing violators and for ticketing drivers/officers who drive or allow apparatus to be driven recklessly.
GM
- ‹ Previous
- 1
- 2
- 3
- 4
- Next ›
© 2024 Created by Firefighter Nation WebChief.
Powered by
