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Dash mounted camera's
Whats your thought on dash mounted cameras? I think we all have a story about driving to the scene and that one motorist (or multiple) that add to stress levels. With a camera we could use the film to assist in drivers training. I also think if you have any extra manpower you can have someone on the crew to turn the camera to video the action on the scene of whatever your call is. Again the training aspect alone would be unmeasurable. I know in todays world the possability of lawsuits would make this a hard sell for some, but we are there for the job, and any assistance a camera could give us for fireground operations, and critique would be awesome. Anyone out there have a camera on board, and if so whats do you think?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Greenman on
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Siren,
You've had a sealed Law Enforcement camera in/on your apparatus? Or was it your/ your department's camera? Did your jurisdiction have an automated process for mailing tickets to the owner's of violator vehicles? Again, going after drivers who fail to follow the law is a Law enforcement function, not a Fire Department function so the Fire Department’s only role is to let the Law Enforcement Agency mount the sealed box on the apparatus.
As for how the public will react, there were those who hated the Red Light Cameras when they came out too: mainly those who ran red lights. After seeing how well those have worked over the past few years, I think the public as a whole wouldn't object to this...unless they fail to pull over for the responding apparatus. Or maybe the guys who race out of side streets to get in front of the truck while everyone else is pulled over. I think the same people who object to Aggressive Driver Enforcement would object to this law enforcement too.
GM
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Siren,
The reason they don't part is because until now there was no real way to put teeth in the law requiring drivers to make way for emergency vehicles. Many people, as you seem to know well, will not obey the law unless there a real chance they will a) get caught, and b) be punished.
How many people speed when they think they can get away with it? What keeps them at least close the speed limit? The threat of a ticket. How many people blow through red lights everyday? How many stop now because cities have installed Red Light Cameras and issue tickets? Red Light Camera tickets are almost impossible to have dismissed in traffic court because the images of them running the red light is proof they violated the law.
An apparatus-mounted Law Enforcement Camera does the same thing for those who don't care enough about others to get out of the way of the Fire Engines. Video of them failing to get out of the way is proof they violated the law and they will have to pay the fine. After a while people will stop trying to beat the tickets because they know they won't win...not when there's a video of them driving in front of the Engine for two blocks when the Engine is responding to a call. Who would have to go to court when someone challenges one of these tickets? A Police officer; probably the one who processed the video clip and issued the ticket via the mail. The same officer who issues Red Light tickets everyday.
Once you put teeth into the enforcement of a law, it doesn't take long for drivers to change their driving habits, but without enforcement why should drivers bother obeying the law?
Drivers are like dogs, you have to train them that it is in their own best interest to pull over when they see the Big Red Trucks coming down the street with their pretty lights and noise makers on.
GM
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Look at this photo I found on here today, thanks David Jordon.
http://www.firefighternation.com/photo/photo/show?id=889755%3APhoto...
While physics will answer most questions about this accident, and witnesses will spend hours giving statements and testifying at the civil trial, one has to wonder How many more questions could be answered by a video of the accident occurring? How many hours of testimony could be saved if the County's defense lawyers could show the video in court? How much will the county recoup when the jurors, or the judge, see the accident happen?
Not a chart or a diagram of how it happened; a recording of the actual event itself. If the Engine had a camera in the dash, that would be very useful to all concerned when the civil suit is filed and goes to trial.
Notice the unusual point of impact, given that it occurred on a two lane road. Was the apparatus angled while FFs worked a previous accident, or was it swerving to avoid a lumber truck whose driver did not pull over? Was the Engine just arriving on-scene and not fully stopped yet - had it pulled into the path of the lumber truck as its driver kept driving down the road? We can probably deduce what happened; probably know what the FFs, the Engine Operator and Officer will say. We probably know what the Lumber truck driver and the Lumber Company’s lawyers will say. If there was a camera running in the dash or on the front bumper of that rig when the collision occurred, we would all know exactly what happened, in what order, and most of all even the average Circle K clerk sitting in the jury box would see it and understand just what happened.
Automated cameras are not really there for us, the Firefighters, they are there for supervisors and for Law Enforcement and for the judicial system. They would benefit us if we get a copy of all the run videos when nothing bad happened as well as when it does.
GM
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Permalink Reply by Brian Dumser on
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The City of Chicago has these cameras on buses to nab motorists parking in the bus zones. They are also starting to install cameras on street sweepers (yes, street sweepers) to nab motorists who park on the street after the "no parking on this side of street due to street sweeping" signs are put up. Offenders are issued a ticket in the mail. Why not do the same with fire apparatus? No need to appear in court except in rare cases.
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Permalink Reply by Joe Stoltz on
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How about a dash-mounted cannon? Now THAT's what I'm talkin' about.
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Permalink Reply by Engineco913 on
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even with a cannon your relying on a good shot, and great reflexes. Not always a good combination
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Not every case needs a lot of interpratation, but we do live in the video age and video evdience makes both proesecutions and defenses a whole-lot easier.
What happens when the logging company claims the rig was obstrcuting the road, with no lights of warning devices on, and the truck was actually only going 25 mph...and of course thier expert witness comfirms their version of physics? Oh, and the logging company and the driver are both suing the county, the fire department, the officer and the operator of the apparatus?
A DVD with the dashcam footage of the accient would sure clear that up pretty quick, wouldn't it?
GM
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Some discussions are bound to end up in fights...
There seems to be two camps on this subject: one who supports autmated Dash Cams for Law Enforcement and training purpose, and one who opposes the autmated cameras for Law Enforcement.
As Brian Dumser pointed out, some cities use the very technology I'm talking about on buses and street sweepers, so I cannot see why the idea of putitng them on Emergency vehicles gets people so riled up!
As for ticketing apparatus operators...I think the Firefighters local would have something to say about that come contract time. :-)
GM
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I really don't think ticketing the vast majority of drivers is likely to happen, but there are those who brazenly do not yield to emergency vehicles. If a drivers wants the use the "I was talking on my cell phone," or the "I was playing with my iPod" defense when they plead to the judge, he or she can always trade the ticket in for a "Driving while distracted" ticket instead. Half the time those are the very drivers out there causing the MVAs we're rolling to.
Smoke detectors save lives in the home, traffic enforcement saves lives on the roads.
I really don't understand why you are so against this idea. As Brian Dumpser pointed out in his post, this system is already used on buses and steeet sweepers to enforce parking violations, and I doubt too many bus drivers and street sweeper operators are dragged ito court for those tickets. The reason "failure to yield" cases are so hard to prove now is due to the lack of evidence provided by a camera....and the entire process would be transparent to the Firefighters (except for a shiny chrome steel box with a lexan window on the front bumper).
As for switching to Law Enforcement...many cities are converting to Public Safety Departments (Kalamazoo, MI ) wherein the Cops are also Firefighters and vice versa. I was a volunteer for such a department in Georgia, and I've seen officers in turn out gear flag down an errant driver while we doing rehab and issue a ticket for failing to stop at a stop sign in front of our rig.
Fire Prevention is to Fire Supression as Traffic Enforcment is Motor Vehicle Rescue and Extrication.
GM
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I think the greatest benefit would be for training purposes. Each year I preach response safety to the troops, and I've found that pictures are very instructive. Actual in-cab videos of hot responses, people not pulling over, etc. are even more valuable.
I also see it as a deterrent to apparatus drivers bending the rules, i.e. running stop signals and signs, speeding and even non-emergency situations such as following too closely.
As far as law enforcement goes, I'll leave that to the experts that understand preservation of evidence, chain of custody and such matters. I will say that there are many people who don't pull over because they ARE tuned in to their phone, or eating a Big Mac, or whatever. On another day they probably would; everyone has a bad day now and again. It is the folks who deliberately do not pull over - you see their eyes looking at you in the mirrors yet they do nothing - who need some type of slap upside the head.
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Permalink Reply by Mary Ellen Shea on
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How about a dash mounted machine gun with a wide angle spray? I'd LOVE one of those....
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GM....
I"m in the "full disclosure, complete accountability" camp.
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