Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Gayla on July 28, 2008 at 9:46pm

How far from hydrant to incident?
What does your typical SFR first alarm consist of apparatus and manpower?

Permalink Reply by Christopher J. Naum, SFPE on July 28, 2008 at 9:58pm

Assume slightly greater than 500 feet hydrant to house driveway.
As far as Incident Alarm Response Assignment; you tell us what you think is necessay or what you would normally respond with in your agency, area etc. We're looking to develop some dialog and insights, that's why there are not a lot of details...

Permalink Reply by Joe Stoltz on July 30, 2008 at 12:43pm

I hope they have insurance.

First plans of action:
- verify that all occupants are out of the structure
- call for a mutual aid ladder/platform, FAST team, additional manpower
- first pumper to the scene, possibly locate in driveway, first line 2 1/2 inch with smooth bore nozzle to A/B side.
- second pumper to lay 5" LDH from hydrant, keeping road and driveway open for other apparatus
- 360 degree walkaround to further size up, shut off gas, locate other entrance/exit points, hazards
- consider blitz attack from Bravo side with 2nd pumper's deck gun in adjoining driveway to darken fire
- set up command, designate operations, safety, accountability, etc. officers.

The fire has been burning for a while, and appears to have started in the attic. I would anticipate a truss roof collapse which may cause the second floor to come down into the first and so on. Weight of water from the fire attack will compound this problem. I would expect the main collapse threat would be a pancake type within the building footprint, but it would be prudent to maintain a safe zone outside the structure as well.

With a direct strike there may be other fires burning, possibly in the basement, in exterior walls, or between floors. Unless there are people still in the house I have a hard time justifying any extended operations inside until the fire is well knocked down and a careful evaluation of structural integrity is made.

Roof ventilation can be done from the bucket of our neighbor's aerial, placed in the driveway of the residence.

Adjoining houses should also be examined for signs of lightning damage, as electical energy from a direct hit can produce damage a considerable distance from the main strike site. At least one, preferably two 4-person crews with full PPE and TICs will make these evaluations.

Permalink Reply by Firedog on August 3, 2008 at 10:12am

Great training idea. I wish our VFD could have run this incident before we had a similar one a few months ago.The asst. chief after about and hour and half attempted to put a crew on the roof to ventilate to see how far the fire had progressed in the attic.The command was stopped by me and another paid firefighter. On initial arrival we had 2 structural collapes 1. 2nd floor (cd) side was into the first and about 15 minutes the top of the chimmey fell into the 2nd floor and this guy still ordered an interior attack and it ended up with opposing streams. It was a real cluster from command point . This guy is not a certified firefighter at all.

Permalink Reply by Christopher J. Naum, SFPE on August 3, 2008 at 1:06pm

The question that must be asked; Did anyone learn from the incident and the issues you presented?" If we don't look at our incidents and the failings or the operational tasks that didn't go as planned or the results that were less than favorable, AND identify areas for improvements AND develop a plan to make the necessary changes, THEN we will repeat those same mistakes in the future (History Repeating Events- HRE) with possibly more serious consequences. If command in this case didn't go well, THEN find a way to improve it. If its a people problem, there's a saying that goes like this; "Can't change the People?" Then- "Change the People!"

Permalink Reply by Firedog on August 3, 2008 at 3:23pm

I do not think this group learned anything but how to put a spin on the topics that were brought to light.I am an officer in a large city and they really circled the wagons when I started asking why was this done this way,All I got was a $#^%@ chewing from the so called chief and now they do not want me to even come around. I do believe that if they do not change someone is going to be injured. Just got to keep trying to change the culture here.Stay safe brother.

Permalink Reply by Christopher J. Naum, SFPE on August 3, 2008 at 3:49pm

Keep "barking", eventually someone will hear what's being said..
Stay safe on your tours and keep Safety in the forefront of everything you do...

Permalink Reply by Christopher J. Naum, SFPE on August 3, 2008 at 9:25pm

Slight "corrections" to the aerial images have been reposted to the scenario as noted in the posting above. Great attention to detail.... a true ICS commander trait....

Permalink Reply by CAPNCRNCH on August 5, 2008 at 10:04am

I agree with Tom on this one, we have had a few just like this, the ones where we go in pull ceilings and hit the fire have gone very well, the one where we pulled everyone out and went defensive ended up in the foundation..

If this was our area we would not have the luxury of hydrants, but I do see five water sources that we would be using.

First engine rolls into the scene, beach in the yard so that the truck will have the driveway, chances are the truck will not arrive till the fire is knocked but oh well. I will very rarely drop a line, our engine /tanker is usually only a minute behind the first engine so they lay in and set up behind the attack pumper as a nurse tanker/ back up pumper.
Our first alarm on this would have been 5 engines, 3 specials with at least two being aerials, two tankers, 1 medic transport, one battalion chief, and 1 medic duty officer. I would call for 4 additional large capacity tankers on my arrival, would also special call 2 brush trucks for water supply.

My crew would then advance to the second floor with a step ladder, hooks, and an 1.75 CAFS line, and a 2.50 CAFS line as backup arrives would also be deployed. From my experience with attic fires like this one , the 1.75 CAFS line will knock the hell outta this fire in a matter of minutes.

I will say for initial knockdown we would probably use 700 gallons of our 1000 gallons on our first in pumper, and probably another 300 for total mop up.

The unknown factor that most concerns me about these types of homes is if there is a air conditioning/ heating unit in the attic that may possibly come down on my head, this could be found out with a 360, I dont believe that this house is big enough to have one in the attic, but you never know, I would expect to find one in the attic of the home with the hip roof at the end of the cul de sac.

I would also limit the amount of personnel to the second floor to around 5, use the other resources to control utilities early due to these homes most likely using either natural gas or propane, and the fact that we will be pulling ceilings and grabbing wires in the process.

Third engine crew would assume RIT, would have them throw a 16' and 14' roof ladder to the porch roof on Alpha side, also two ladders to the windows on Charlie side.