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Comment by Aric Stewart on February 21, 2008 at 3:36pm

i think that blog is awsome i have been preaching that for the last 4 months to the rookies i am responible for in training and they keep saying the same thing over and over it won't happen to us. I reinformed them when i showed them the MAYDAY call from Houston Texas, i told them that this could happen to anybody and without proper training you could get hurt or even worse killed. I like the way you think firefighter safety and firefighter training

Comment by Tiger Schmittendorf on November 24, 2007 at 4:31pm

Thanks to everyone who responded to this blog -

It's good to know that others share the same sentiments and passion towards training. It's simply who we are and what we do.

And without it, we are nothing, if not dead.

Comment by Ray on November 24, 2007 at 11:34am

Well said my friend. I have been in for 28 years. I attend training whenever we have classes, usually twice a month.
I hope everyone that reads this doesn't think they know everything. I thought I did in the beginning till I got blown out of two different buildings due to backdrafts.........

Comment by Michael Galante on November 23, 2007 at 4:51pm

Well put.. Training should be one of your primary focuses. Unless you are in a busy city department no one gets enough hands on to not train. Even there training should come first. The biggest focus in the fire service is SAFETY, YOURS AND EVERYONE AROUND YOU,THE ONLY WAY TO LEARN THAT IS TO TRAIN. As for the ones that dont then they are a liability to you and your department. Every new recruit , before they even sign on the dotted line should be made aware of the time and committment they are getting into, TRAINING being the biggest committment.

Stay Safe........Mike

Comment by Art "ChiefReason" Goodrich on November 18, 2007 at 8:09pm

Yeah; that whole "two-hatter" rule disturbs me, because, effectively, someone is telling you how to do your down time.
I mean; my place of employment could tell me that they don't want me volunteering for the fire department, because if I get hurt fighting a fire, then I can't come to work for them.
What about all of the "risky" hobbies like rock climbing, motorcycling, para-sailing and such? Why is that acceptable to the union, but volunteering where you live isn't?
Oh, I know; they want the volunteer departments to become career departments. It doesn't have anything to do with how you spend your free time; it's because you fight fires for free!
I swear; I don't know why the IAFF isn't making an effort to organize the volunteers and instead of collecting union dues from full time jobs, they would be offering benefits such as retirement and supplemental insurance and a vehicle for disciplinary issues. I wouldn't be opposed to that.
I think that's another thread topic.
But, I understand that it is having an impact on the numbers.
Art

Comment by Randy Macey on November 18, 2007 at 7:37pm

Art you have some very good points, and as a trainer at one of 9 stations we have. As well the amount of time I've put in to help out the other stations as well, lets not forget new recruit classes. I do put a lot of time and effort into the training, as well as trying to keep it fresh and interesting for those to come out. Yes we have manditory training that has to be done. Yes we have seen a major change in the 9 stations of 250 firefighters. Some have left due to the fact that it's no longer a boys club, or a fun place to be now. Times have changed, with more issues of safety and training and accountability.

Where we see the difference is getting someone that can now purchase a low figued home in the area for a price starting at $325,000.00 and up. Have the time to commit
with the fire dept. Most that move into our area and want to get on the fire dept. are using it as a stepping stone to get into full time. We know this as we see this, and once you get on with a full time the Fire Union states that you must give up Vol. as it's against the Union and you will not be allowed to be a Two Hatter.

Example check out this News Paper Web Site Issue

(http://www.orangevillebanner.com/orangeville/searchresults?q=Two-Hatter)

Orangeville Ont. just north of us has just lost 7 of there firefighters due to the two hatter issue. They figured between the lose of 7 of there firefighters, they have lost almost 80 years of experience. Plus there training officer had to leave as he was a full time firefighter for another area.

There is no simple answer, but you know some of the people that get there foot in the door. Some of the first questions they ask, when do I get my pager, when do I get to put lights on my truck or car. When I got on, I was issued fire gear and a pager and was told. Welcome your now a firefighter, since then I have put in 1000's of hours into training and courses.

Most halls have the same set up for the coat rack, the most experience is at the front and the rookie is at the end. As a rookie, I do remember one call when in the back of the truck and about to ask a guy who was half way up the rack. Beat me to the punch line, "What are we suppose to do?" know that freaked me out. Those times have changed, our rookies have gone through 4 months of training before they are issued a pager and released to there station and allowed to run calls or be
on a truck.

It's hard, and to great answer... But many halls will either have to be closed down or be running with someone with very little experience as those who are getting older and still think they are 25 can still do the job. But the safety factor on those leaving and putting someone that has less than 5 years on and now are either Chiefs or Capts.
I feel that is not enough experience. There is also the difference between how many calls you do too....

Not all answers are in the books, you have to experience it for real and either fail or know what goes and what does not go. This type of job is a job where the wrong mistake can either kill or hurt someone or a number of people.

Comment by Art "ChiefReason" Goodrich on November 18, 2007 at 6:46pm

Paul:
You're a BUSY guy!
I kinda figured that I was preaching to the choir.
What I have found is that we can't expect everyone to have our level of "dedication, if you will, so, as leaders, we have to establish an acceptable minimum. We have to establish the bar and periodically, raise the bar.
Where departments get into trouble is when they LOWER the bar, in the hopes of retaining and recruiting members.
We have never penalized a member for his work duties that may interfere with their ability to attend meetings and training. We offer make up sessions for them. We have some who work second shift at their paying jobs and since our meetings are held in the evenings, it is rare when we see them at a meeting.
What we find is a balance between work/fire department duties that lets all parties benefit. We hold our fundraisers on the same day year after year and hope that the members will schedule accordingly. We don't throw the responsibilities on the same group of individuals to avoid burn out. When a member is at odds with our requirements, we will counsel them and hopefully, keep them.
When an individual's lack of participation starts to affect the morale of others, then it is time to look at the benefits vs. terminating the relationship.
We are not flush with new recruits, but we have not found ourselves in a situation where we have had to go out and "recruit". We maintain a waiting list of prospective members. We are fortunate in that regard.
As the requirements increase, we have to find new ways to keep people engaged. That will be the tough part going forward.
Make sure that you get some "me time" once in awhile!
Stay safe.
Art

Comment by Paul Montpetit on November 18, 2007 at 6:17pm

I see.....But you are preaching to the choir....as I am one of "the older" people to return to the service....I have been an EMT here in NY for more years than I like to admit....EMT # 12--....yes thats 4 digits....how many do you know in that range..??...I am also a Registered Nurse and work in a burn ICU...Have a family of 3 (one young girl) and am active(VERY active) now with the local fireservice as a Firefighter, and cause and origin investigator, technical rescue specialist, and live fire trainer....so please don't feel that I don't undestand...I attend EVERY training session and even manage to make a trip to Montour Falls at least once a year for more training.....mandates can and I feel DO affect recruitment.....BUT in my opinion if thats a deterrment then we don't really need this person....but it IS a factor...hard to deny that.........Take care, stay safe....Paul

Comment by Art "ChiefReason" Goodrich on November 18, 2007 at 5:36pm

Paul:
If you were responding to my post, then let me say that I didn't miss the point on retention loss.
Look; people don't typically leave a small community because they aren't catching enough fires. They leave because of their job situation, family situation or some other external reason.
Have you seen a trend lately where older firefighters are being RECRUITED BACK into the service? Know why?
Of course you do. They KNOW what to expect; they have done it and will continue to do it until they drop. They have their priorities in line and they have no false expectations. Their family knows them and supports them. The 20 and 30 somethings have grown up jaded. They have more personal issues that require more of their time and they don't want to give their time to their community. If it doesn't improve their disposable income so that they can buy more toys, then they aren't interested. It is about having fun and not about community service. Think about all the time that is WASTED in a day and then tell me that people don't have the time to commit to such a worthwhile cause.
In fact, consider this:

[Quote]So, You Don’t Have the Time?
By ChiefReason

Many of you know that I draw from my experiences and training as a member of a volunteer fire department. That is especially true when dealing with the problems and the issues that face the small, rural volunteer organizations that are indicative of the majority of our nation’s fire departments.
I have no difficulties in exchanging thoughts and ideas with career firefighters and am quite comfortable when around them. I must admit that I love to sit and listen to the career men and women relate their experiences because many will answer more calls in a 30 day period than a lot of volunteer departments will answer in a year! It is not my intentions here to start a vollie/career debate; but to merely point out that, though our core values and goals are the same, our problems are distinctly different. Two that come to mind are recruitment and retention. That is what we will explore from the volunteer perspective.

Not long ago, we discovered in our department that there seemed to be a core group of officers and veterans that gave a disproportionately larger number of hours-i.e. effort to the department than the others. I felt that it was important to send a strong message to the others in order to strengthen their commitment. So, what I did was; at a monthly meeting, I pulled out all of the officers and anyone with more than ten years on the department and asked them to leave the room. That left thirteen in the room. What I asked them next was; if this was your core group, who would be your officers? I had them “elect” a chief, assistant chief, captains and lieutenants. It produced some very interesting results. Ironically, the “chief” that they elected is now a lieutenant with the department. It would not surprise to see him as chief somewhere down the road.

So, we had their attention on the issue of not relying on the fact that the veterans and officers as they knew them would always be around. They had to start preparing NOW for the future of the fire department. Then, I had to tackle the issue of the “perceived” constraints on everyone’s time. It is not a problem that is ours alone but is one that is shared throughout the nation. It can destroy departments and here’s why:
For the past several years, volunteer fire departments have been hit with an almost apathetic attitude in their communities when it comes to recruiting and retaining new firefighters. I don’t have the time has become the mantra of young, able-bodied men and women who, when approached by their fire department will tell them in short order that they don’t have the time. If they do join the department, they will only give you what time they feel is left over from their very hectic schedule and life style. I believe that selfish has replaced selfless in today’s society.
Not long ago, my fire department had a few members who were well below the average for training hours, stating that they didn’t have the time. I decided to take a pragmatic look at it, for I have always held that if it is important to you, you will MAKE time. I also wanted to make certain that I wasn’t being overly critical of our younger members.

In a calendar year, there are (8,760) hours. From that, I will subtract as many time-consuming activities that come to mind on a daily basis during the year. Here goes.

Most of us will work (2080) hours at our regular jobs in a year’s time. I will credit everyone with (80) hours a year in vacation time. I will even give you another (40) hours a year for sick time. If you work for my company, you get (9) paid holidays a year for another (72) hours. We have to sleep, don’t we? Of course we do, so you all get (8) hours a night for a total of (2920) hours a year. Hey, we have to eat sometime. Most of us go through the drive-up for breakfast, but I will still give you a (1/2) hour for breakfast, a (1/2) hour for lunch and (1) hour for dinner everyday for the entire year. That adds up to another (730) hours. You get a night out every week to go to pool league, bowling, darts, canasta; whatever personal recreation you enjoy. You get (5) hours for it-remember, you have work tomorrow-and that’s (260) hours just for you! Church activities earn you another (208) hours. School activities twice a week will total (260) hours a year. Time with your spouse-that’s quality time-is good for (10) hours a week for (520) a year. Keep in mind that this time is for the two of you together, in the same place at the same time with no one else around. No; bedtime is not in these hours. Single folks get more recreation time, if they choose. What are we up to so far? Don’t tell me. You probably belong to another organization such as Lions, Shriners, Masons, school board, village board, church board and that is another (3) hour meeting each week for a total of (156) hours. Now, let’s see what we have for a total. (7326) hours! According to my math, that leaves (1434) hours. Under my plan, you’ll get an outdoor activity each week for a yearly total of (416) hours. Do relatives “drop” in once in a while? I’ll assume every other week for a total (104) hours yearly. You’re probably taking classes one night a week for (4) hours, so that figures out to (208) hours a year. Have I missed anything? Probably, but I have left some flex in this scenario and have been more than liberal out of fairness. The total hours stand at (8054), leaving (706) hours for other activities. What about the fire department? If yours is like mine, you want (100) hours a year out of your members. That includes training and fundraising. You are left with (606) hours to do with as you would like!

Still believe that you don’t have time for the fire department? Granted, fire calls will come at all hours of the day or night and will undoubtedly interrupt some of your other “scheduled” activities, but you have that (606)-hour cushion that you can tap into.

Just think about all of the time that we waste on gratuitous activities; on activities that add nothing to our communities’ quality of life. For (100) hours a year, you get immeasurable satisfaction in learning skills that will help you to help others. I don’t see a down side! And besides; has TV really been that good lately?

You can join the millions of couch potatoes in this country or you can join a dedicated group of public servants who can make a difference when the call for help comes in.

I’ll tape it and watch when I have the time. Right now, I need to go to the fire station for a training session. It’ll take some time, but according to my math, I have plenty of it! What’s your excuse?

Published 3/23/03.

© IACOJ. Articles submitted to and printed by the International Association of Crusty Old Jakes (IACOJ) are protected. This article is re-printed by permission.[End of Quote]

I will be taking your questions.
Art

Comment by Paul Montpetit on November 18, 2007 at 5:11pm

I think you missed the point of retention loss.....people don't stay away because of the "requirements"....BUT many don't join because of the massive time required to take the training....here in Ny Firefighter I went from 72 hours to 98 hours this year alone....now add the ems stuff and all the in-house and you can see it can be quite intimidating to a new person...Paul

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