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Who was in the wrong?
Ok I know I’m going to catch a lot of crap for this one and probably most people aren’t going to agree with my look on this issue we had at my department but it still bothers me so here it goes…
About a month ago my department gets toned out possible barn fire, Chief arrives on scene reports a confirmed 2 story working barn repair shop fire with a second barn exposure on the C side well involved with a full size van on the A side also a exposure problem he immediately requests a full assignment from our district and a second and third alarm to be started bring in equipment from 6 other departments (mostly tankers). So I respond along with 2 other FF that where with me from about 15 – 20 minutes away considering it’s a working fire and during the week day I figure that they would have a manpower issue ( 2 of us are interiors both captains and 1 exterior probie I have about 6 years of firefighting experience and the other interior has about 30 years). We get on scene advise our chief that we are there and he is at the road doing water command and the barns are both on the ground but still burning pretty good so me and the other interior go pack up and get ready to go over to the fire since there was only 3 hand lines going. After we pack up and start to approach the barns to get orders from the commander who is standing over near the barns we are stopped by a assistant chief from 3 departments away and told they don’t need any more FF over there and we need to stand by over at the engines (mind you there are still only 3 hand lines on two barns and only about 6 FF 2 on each line and some of them went off the lines to start overhaul so some lines only had 1 person on them and also at least two of them FF’s low air alarms where going off) So we aren’t happy with his orders but stand by where he told us. About 2 minutes latter our assistant chief who was operations who was still over by the fire comes over looking for more interiors since they had low air alarms going off and others just wanted a break so then they let myself and the other interior with me go over and relieve the 2 with low air alarms while about 10 other interiors are forced to continue to stand there doing nothing when there is a lot of over haul and so on to be done. There was no other danger at the time there were no chemicals or anything like that in the barns, what was left of the barns where stable and nothing left of walls or roofs so no danger to falling debris, and so on. So I just wanted everyone’s opinion on what place this assistant chief from 3 departments away had to force all these interiors to stand by when there is work to be done and there was no orders from any one above this guy to have him do these actions he did it on his own and when someone would try and get to the scene he would physically not allow them past him… something just don’t seem right and our chiefs knew it happened and did nothing about it just said they did not order it…
About a month ago my department gets toned out possible barn fire, Chief arrives on scene reports a confirmed 2 story working barn repair shop fire with a second barn exposure on the C side well involved with a full size van on the A side also a exposure problem he immediately requests a full assignment from our district and a second and third alarm to be started bring in equipment from 6 other departments (mostly tankers). So I respond along with 2 other FF that where with me from about 15 – 20 minutes away considering it’s a working fire and during the week day I figure that they would have a manpower issue ( 2 of us are interiors both captains and 1 exterior probie I have about 6 years of firefighting experience and the other interior has about 30 years). We get on scene advise our chief that we are there and he is at the road doing water command and the barns are both on the ground but still burning pretty good so me and the other interior go pack up and get ready to go over to the fire since there was only 3 hand lines going. After we pack up and start to approach the barns to get orders from the commander who is standing over near the barns we are stopped by a assistant chief from 3 departments away and told they don’t need any more FF over there and we need to stand by over at the engines (mind you there are still only 3 hand lines on two barns and only about 6 FF 2 on each line and some of them went off the lines to start overhaul so some lines only had 1 person on them and also at least two of them FF’s low air alarms where going off) So we aren’t happy with his orders but stand by where he told us. About 2 minutes latter our assistant chief who was operations who was still over by the fire comes over looking for more interiors since they had low air alarms going off and others just wanted a break so then they let myself and the other interior with me go over and relieve the 2 with low air alarms while about 10 other interiors are forced to continue to stand there doing nothing when there is a lot of over haul and so on to be done. There was no other danger at the time there were no chemicals or anything like that in the barns, what was left of the barns where stable and nothing left of walls or roofs so no danger to falling debris, and so on. So I just wanted everyone’s opinion on what place this assistant chief from 3 departments away had to force all these interiors to stand by when there is work to be done and there was no orders from any one above this guy to have him do these actions he did it on his own and when someone would try and get to the scene he would physically not allow them past him… something just don’t seem right and our chiefs knew it happened and did nothing about it just said they did not order it…
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Smoke Eater on
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I don't really want to take sides on this one as I have done this myself. I have taken over scenes from my Asst. Chief due to the fact that he won a popularity vote and isn't really too comfortable with making decisions. In my opinion, that Asst. Chief should have known better than to have only 3 lines on 2 barns. You have to get into that stuff somehow or you will be there for over 24 hrs. trying to put it out or worse, get a rekindle, which we all know is very embarrassing. Everyone in scanner land hears that. If manpower was an issue then someone should have taken control of that scene and called for more manpower just to rotate guys out.
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Permalink Reply by Joe Stoltz on
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Gee, this story sounds about right... doesn't everyone run their scene like this? :o)
Like others have said, there was a breakdown in (or lack of) the command structure. The AC from 3 departments away should have been in touch with Operations, but instead gave you an assignment that was countermanded a few minutes later by Ops.
But, in the few minutes between your meeting up with the AC and then the Ops chief, the assignment may have gotten changed via radio communications. Who knows?
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Permalink Reply by Jason Koontz on
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Okay, the first thing I get is that you reported to your Chief, who was at the road doing water command. That right there says he was NOT the IC. We have fires, theres the IC, there's water command, operations, interior, whatever else you need. If he's on the road running water supply, he's not in command of the incident, which means you didn't actually report to anyone. What was the mutual aid AC's position on the fire? Interior attack, staging, anything at all? Sounds like there was no real command structure at the fire, and if there was, they weren't doing very well since you didn't know it. ICS classes are all well and good, but I'd say take the next step. Set up some drills, training sessions, etc with these other dept's. That way next time you have a major incident where you all end up together onscene, everyone has a much better idea on how to work together, and you already have some semblance of how to work together. Plus it gives you the opportunity to find out what everyones strong and weak points are. One dept may be awesome at knowing how to run water, set up supply, things like that, while another has a truck company that prides themselves on their chainsaw abilities. As for who was right or wrong, I think its more of a question of how do we make sure the failures here don't happen again.
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Permalink Reply by John on
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the on scene IC was one if my departments Asst Chiefs who was staged over closer to the building than this asst chief from the other department would alow us to go so we had essentially no way to communicate with the IC
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Permalink Reply by Dewayne and Diana Bean on
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Did he own the barn and have a lot of insurance? IC needs to be in command.
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Ok I see where your coming from and thats right our chief who was at the road was not the IC he was water command but I just got into the habit of always reporting to the head chief when i arrive on a scene if I arrive late or etc. so after he knew i was there i proceeded down to the scene where i see our Asst chief who was IC over near the barns the problem comes in when this other asst chief who has no "assigned" role made all of us stage way away from the barns and prevent any of us from reaching IC untill IC needed the firemenn with the low air alarms going off untill that point he just assumed that we were once again short handed and that is why he had very few FF near the barns until he relized that we were all forced to stage out of his "reach".
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Permalink Reply by John Sees on
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Maybe you should look at this fire this way, you did the right thing, you did as you were told. Reading your report I can see all kinds of problems. Everyone has stated the problem with command. What about dispatch, why not a full assignment first dispatch? If you got on the scene 15 - 20 minutes after the dispatch and only had 3 lines flowing, was there enough water for more lines? If not why? I think that everyone involved with this fire should get together and find out why things were done the way they were. Then if everyone agrees that there were problems, they should try to fine ways to correct them.
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Permalink Reply by Dustin J. Millis on
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Sounds like everyone was in the wrong. There was no clear IC established... (if there was, something like this wouldnt have happened). Any FF with low air alarms ringing needs to be removed immeaditly and either get a new pack or go to rehab for awhile. The ten other "interiors" needed to find the actual IC commander and retirive orders from him/her, rather then stand around doing nothing.
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Permalink Reply by FETC on
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Sounds like the guy was establishing a manpower staging area to afford the Incident Commander the opportunity to organize his thoughts and personnel. Maybe he was told to establish it by the IC.
Otherwise, candle to moth with every firefighter arriving on scene will packup and head to the fire, then there is no accountability.
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Permalink Reply by R Griffin on
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I believe any orders should have been done by the IC. Also you said the chief was down at the end of a drive setting up water supply? Let the chief that stopped you do water supply and your chief take control of the scene. Maybe you could have your chief set up a training with mutual aid on incident command..
Now on the other hand the chief that stopped you might be looking at the risk nothing to save nothing factor. You said they were pretty much gone on your arrival so maybe he wanted to get some accountability started by staging you by the apparatus. You should bring this issue up with the membership and the chief of your dept. My opinion is just that I can't tell you what is right or wrong being a armchair quarterback here. You must feel that you have the right to do what you want since it was in your response area and this issue seems to be bothering you a little. I think you can get this resolved by just talking more with the chief and following the dept SOG's or SOP's BE SAFE!!!
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Permalink Reply by Michael Crowley on
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The assistant chief- sector commander- orders were appropriate. As you stated there was no life threat or need to assign you to fight the fire so you could do something. His order was in my mind good because he was conserving his available manpower if needed. I have been at many barn fires in which the conditions change rapidly. Your statement (There was no other danger at the time there were no chemicals or anything like that in the barns) is not only presumptive but shows me a lack of real experience. You made the right decision to follow orders, freelancing is for dogs in heat. If every person arriving at the scene made their own decision about what they were going to do when they wanted to do it not too many of us would go home.
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