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Thought for the day
Some fire officers can lead their personnel through the gates of hell and back... others couldn't lead a herd of cats even if they were wearing turnouts made of tuna...
discuss...
discuss...
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by John Crabbe on
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If a chief has to fill a tactical role, that tells me that the chief should have spent more time prior to the call training his company officers to fill those tactical roles.
I'm contending that a chief officer CAN be placed in a SECTOR role with a close enough proximity where an SCBA should be worn. I am not talking about a command post where the IC is. A chief can still fill an important role and be able to give a better view than a company officer limited in their task can. That chief officer can be utilized inside as a SECTOR or in close proximity to the hazard area, where such PPE is required. Just because a chief is on scene does not mean they have to fill a command role, especially if the role is already filled. As for you saying a chief did a poor job or should have spent more time training his company officers to fill such tactical roles isn't the issue. On larger scale incidents, those requiring a chief officer to have an SCBA also probably means the company officer should be with the company, not filling a SECTOR role.
And...if you'll re=read my posts, you'll note that my position is based on what I think a chief officer should be doing, while you're arguing something completely different...what you think a chief officer should know.
I know exactly what you think a chief officer should be doing, yet you fail to see a reason why a chief officer could be inside a hazard area necessitating the use of an SCBA. You fail to see a chief officer can be utilized for a role other than command. You are making excuses for a chief officer to NOT have to know how to use an SCBA...a basic piece of PPE.
I could care less about some volly dept with "exterior" only people or money issues or health issues of senior experienced members, I am contending the very simple fact that a chief officer may be in a position where the use of an SCBA may be necessary. It has been done in the past, it is done today and will probably be done in the future...it does happen and can be a beneficial role fulfilled to mitigate the fire scene.
Yes, I absolutely think a chief officer should know how to use an SCBA, whether they never wear one for the rest of their career, it is still a piece of safety PPE and should be something every member of a FD is familiar with. Just like a General in the Army, or Marines knowing the basics of shooting a rifle, there is NO reason whatsoever a chief should not know how to use basic PPE. I would have a difficult time facing chief trying to talk safety, wearing PPE and so forth when they themselves are unfamiliar with the equipment.
Sorry, Ben, maybe I just come from a line where leaders lead by example...not a do as I say, not as I do. I see no reason for making excuses for people not to be familiar with basic PPE.
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Permalink Reply by Rusty Mancini on
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I think it depends on the type of situation, department staffing level, and what type of call you are on. I have gone across the county to large commercial structure fires where I was placed in a sector role inside, more than once! These were mutual aid calls that the hosting department didn't have enough company officers at the time. If enough company level officers arrive on the scene after a period of time, I would be pulled out and replaced. Then there are departments that are staffed with enough company officers ,that there should be no need for a Chief officer to be inside.
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Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on
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John,
I have a few additional comments:
1) "Sector" is an obsolete term that is not included in NIMS. The NIMS terms are General Staff "Branch", geographical "Divisions", and functional "Groups". If a chief is filling a General Staff role (Operations, Logistics, Planning, or Administration/Finance) then clearly that chief should be located far enough away from the hazard zone that a change in conditions can't overrun them or wipe them out. That precludes the need for SCBA. If a chief is running a group or division, the same logic applies.
2) I don't fail to see a chief officer in roles other than Command at all. I have given repeated examples where chief officers operate in other roles - Branch or Division/Group leadership roles. I just believe that those roles should be carried out from a place where there's no chance that the accountability for the firefighters in those Branches or Divisions/Groups is taken into the hazard zone. Tracking personnel accountability outside the hazard zone and wearing SCBA are incompatible to the point of being mutually exclusive. You have yet to even address personnel accountability in any of your replies. How is a chief supposed to maintain his Branch/Division/Group accountability in a safe place and wear SCBA in the hazard zone at the same time???
3) In large incidents that require the company officer to lead task-level operations with his/her company, the chiefs running the Branches and Divisions/Groups should still be operating where they can safely track their personnel, not leading the charge from the front. Yes, chief officers can function as company officers or nozzlemen. That doesn't make it desirable, or smart.
4) There's nothing wrong from leading by example...until the chief's example becomes an abandonment of responsibility. If the chief is maintaining accountability and gets so close to the fire that he or she needs to wear SCBA, then that chief is risking the safety of all of the firefighters under his or her supervision in order to get too close to the fire.
5) You also haven't addressed the NFPA 1500 issues of having a chief enter a hazard zone wearing PPE and SCBA without a partner. One of the basic tenets of our business is the buddy system. Most departments no longer have chief's aides. That means the chiefs operate solo most of the time. Operating solo in a hazard zone that requires PPE is not setting a great example.
6) If you ignore volly departments with exterior-only members and small departments who have chiefs that can no longer pass the interior firefighter physical, you're ignoring a significant group of firefighters who read what's posted on FFN. Those groups certainly are included in the issues of chiefs who may not wear - or may not be able to wear - SCBA. Focusing on how it is in your department certainly doesn't exclude recognizing that other departments do it differently for valid reasons.
Leading by example is important. The most important example a chief can set is that carrying out the responsibilities of his assignment are the most important. The chief's job as a leader isn't to "be the best rifleman" or to even be on the front lines. If the battle takes out the general, then the troops are leaderless. Ensuring that the troops are never leaderless, ensuring that the troops are accounted for 100% of the time when in the hazard zone, and ensuring that the incident is driven strategically, not tactically, are the first things a chief should demonstrate when leading by example.
If a chief is so close to the action that wearing SCBA is required, then by definition that chief can't see the big picture and can no longer operate strategically. At that point, the chief isn't leading by example, and may not be in a position to lead at all.
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Permalink Reply by Art "ChiefReason" Goodrich on
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Quite simply;
Incident command should NOT be mobile.
Example: some years ago, we had a multi-agency incident. No less than six departments responded, including mine.
While enroute, we made several attempts to contact IC directly. No reply. We contacted Dispatch to relay for us. No reply.
When we get there, the IC was no where to be found. I grabbed a guy from his department and asked. His reply was that "he is running around here somewhere".
When I finally caught up to him, I was so mad I couldn't see straight. I let him have it with both barrels. I explained the frustration to him. He said that he didn't hear our radio transmissions because he was "inside" the involved building and it was metal.
He took me off of his Christmas card list.
But he understands the importance of IC now.
Chief officers should be outside; not inside. They should not be in SCBA unless the outside atmosphere is mucky. They should not be mobile, unless they have passed command and everyone there knows that he passed command.
Yes; I think that he should know how to don/doff an SCBA, but not necessarily how to tune a carburator.
So, find a spot in the front yard and stay there.
TCSS.
Art
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Jeff,
There should only be one person with the word "Command" in a position title, and that should be the Incident Commander.
The person in charge of the rear can be properly called "Division C" or "Division Charlie".
When a chief goes interior after knockdown, do you guys put the chief in SCBA or not?
If not, do you monitor the atmosphere with a multi-gas atmospheric monitor to ensure adequate oxygen levels are present, and that dangerous levels of flammable gases and carbon monoxide are not present?
If the chief wears SCBA, does he take a partner or operate alone?
I'm not saying that you're wrong...just asking questions about your operation.
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The reason for only having one person with the word "Command" in the title is that there have been LODDs and near-misses in which a contributing factor was more than one person using the word "Command" when giving orders in a Mayday or bailout situation.
When conflicting orders are given from more than one person with "Command" in their title (for example "Command" and "Interior Command") it adds confusion to an already bad situation. If you need someone designated in charge on the interior, they can be called "Interior" or "Division 1" which indicates where they are and what they are in charge of just fine. It avoids the "who is what kind of Command" problems, too.
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Permalink Reply by Oldman on
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I'm trying to figure out how this topic went from fire officers ability to lead or not, to a deadlocked debate about chiefs and SCBA.
Why cannot a Chief go interior? There is no law, rule or regulation, save maybe departmental SOPs which prohibits the practice (that I am aware of)
Why cannot a Captain be IC? I have been in command of many incidents from vehicle crashes to 2-11 residential fires. I have had the same NIMS training as the Chiefs. Nowhere in NIMS does it say that a Chief must be in command. Maybe my Chief has confidence in my ability to command. Again, maybe department SOPs require it, and ideally maybe a Chief should be.
How can a Chief be IC, and accountability at the same time? Unless it is a very small incident, the IC has enough to deal with. Expanding his span of control further by adding accountability is asking for disaster. A Chief takes command, and has an another officer take accountability especially if it is a large incident.
As far as SCBA use goes, in my opinion, anyone on the fireground needs to familiar with an airpack, including Chiefs, Safety, and EOs (drivers). Conditions can change as fast as the weather in Texas.
Besides, an officer around my department wouldn't be able to lead a herd of cats wearing "tuna turn out's". The crew would have it eaten before the cats got near.
And that's my nickel's worth.
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Permalink Reply by TOMMY on
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IF HE'S OPERATING WITH SCBA ON A TACTICAL LEVEL.. THEN HE NEEDS TO BE INTRODUCED TO THE STRATEGIC LEVEL OF COMMAND ACCOUNTABILITY. SOME CHIEFS NEVER LEARN TO TRANSITION FROM THE AMUSEMENT AND ENTERTAINMENT VALUE OF DOIN TACTILE STUFF... TO DOIN STRATEGIC STUFF..ALL THE WHILE... EVERONE IS FREE LANCING WITH OUT ANY ACCOUNTABILITY. eVER HEARD OF THE 10 COMMANDMENTS OF SAFE AND INTELLIGENT FIRE GROUND COMMAND??? MARK EMERY REALLY PUT IT TO A LOT OF PEOPLES MISGUIDED NOTIONS AND EGOS ON HOW TO RUN A SCENE... CHECK OUT HIS WRITINGS AND TAKE NOTES.... NUFF SAID RIGHT???
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Permalink Reply by Padre Pete on
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Art, Thanks for sharing your story. In doing that, you also told mine. Same efforts, same responses and same results. Incoming officers needed to hear and share input and they could not even find the IC in abstentia. "I think hes around back helping someone set up a portable pond." Result: Commander caused total, instead of partial, ruin of a major retail outlet because he was ignoring his responsibility to be where he was expected to be.
Pete (ex chief this time)
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I'm trying to figure out how this topic went from fire officers ability to lead or not, to a deadlocked debate about chiefs and SCBA.
Well, I will take responsibility for starting that shitstorm. It started when the first responder to this thread stated something about his chief not knowing how to operate an SCBA. Ben interjected his opinion that a chief should not have to worry about being on air and went on to state his opinion on how chief should only be outside. I interjected my opinion that a chief should have a basic knowledge about any safety equipment, especially PPE. I also interjected that there are times that a chief officer (NOT THE IC as many must somehow believe here) may be in an area where wearing an SCBA may be necessary.
Personally, I can not believe the number of excuses made for the inability for a person to know and understand basic PPE. I could care less if a chief officer never wears an SCBA again, but it is my opinion that EVERY FF, from the chief on down should know how to use an SCBA. There are just some things that are inexcuseable....and not being familiar with basic safety equipment is one of them. If you are going to have the title FIRE anything before your name, you should be familiar with basic PPE and an SCBA. There is absolutely NO REASON not to be.
As far as SCBA use goes, in my opinion, anyone on the fireground needs to familiar with an airpack, including Chiefs, Safety, and EOs (drivers). Conditions can change as fast as the weather in Texas.
Absolutely....and that is the bottom line point I was making!
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Sorry Ben, I guess since NIMS, everyone does it by the book. I mean I know all fire departments use the three or four digit number depicting the rig. I mean everyone says Engine 421 etc, vs just engine 2. I know everyone also uses the term TENDER to refer to a ground water shuttle vehicle. I'm sorry I didn't follow the NIMS bible in my examples to make a point.
You have yet to address the issue about a high rise operation where a "branch", "Group", or "division" is established on the inside where the use of an SCBA may be necessary. You are also failing to see that an SCBA could be worn by a chief officer at an incident and NOT be on air. Accountabilty, for us, is maintained by a person with the IC, yes outside the fire scene. In the two incidents I know of where we had a chief officer on the inside, they were also paired up with another crewmember. The point of the matter is that a chief officer could still operate on the inside and just because they wear a white helmet doesn't mean the outside is the ONLY place.
I'm not ignoring those volly departments with exterior only FF's, I stated I could care less about how they operate. I said I could care less if a chief officer never wears an SCBA again in their career. What I AM contending is that and SCBA is an important piece of SAFETY equipment of which every member from the chief on down should be familiar with. There is NO excuse for a member of a fire department to not have knowledge of a BASIC piece of SAFETY EQUIPMENT. I am also contending that there have been, and are times where it is beneficial to have a chief officer on the inside.
Just because a person may never use an SCBA again in their career doesn't mean they should n
ot be familiar with the equipment. When I was in the Navy (the Navy's motto is every sailor is a FF, like the Marines have every Marine is a rifleman) Everyone had to know how to use and SCBA within 24 hours of their checking on board the ship, from the C.O. to the newest booter. Even though the Commanding Officer would not be doing any fire suppression or even mitigating the incident, the C.O. still knew how to use an SCBA....THAT is my contention I am making here.
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Any more thoughts, Gonzo?
:-)
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